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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 27th Jan 2019, 15:05
  #17281 (permalink)  
 
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Trump's best and brightest lineup. At the moment, Mueller is concentrating on lineup members that were untruthful in sworn testimony...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...wikileaks.html
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 19:26
  #17282 (permalink)  
 
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ďJust give it a thought, how many coups has America been involved withĒ

ďA considerable numberĒ

Yes, it is a considerable number.

Instead of listing the number of countries America has f$%^&ed with, itís a much quicker to simply list the ones it hasnít.





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Old 28th Jan 2019, 20:43
  #17283 (permalink)  
 
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It is a small world ....

We went to the movies last night, to see Juli, a film based on the life of famed Cuban dancer Carlos Acosta. (Worth seeing if you have any interest at all in Cuba and/or ballet.) There was a dance number in the film that featured Smedley Butler. Leaving the theater my German wife and our German friends were asking me who Smedley Butler was, and why he called himself a "gangster."

Yes, well, Butler had been a major general in the US Marine Corps, a two-time recipient of the Medal of Honor, a true war hero and the most highly decorated Marine of his time. In retirement he wrote a book that was highly critical of the role played by the USA abroad, when he indeed described himself acting as "a racketeer; a gangster for capitalism." Hardly anyone remembers Smedley Butler today, but the Cubans have not forgotten him.

It is ironic that part of the reason for all these migrants that Trump is whipping up a frenzy about is that the USA has done so much to create hellish conditions in their home countries. I mentioned the School of the Americas to my Germans, and how (what a small world it really is) we had trained the people who killed a lay sister who had been in the Girl Scouts with one of my own sisters. (That was the one where General Alexander Haig described the killing of four American women, three nuns and that lay sister, as having taken place during an "exchange of fire," as if those women had been shooting back at their Salvadorean, US-trained killers.)
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 05:04
  #17284 (permalink)  
 
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Hardly anyone remembers Smedley Butler today

Hundred of thousands of Marines past and present know who Gen. Butler was.

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Old 29th Jan 2019, 05:07
  #17285 (permalink)  
 
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Wonder if ATCers fully realize just how strong a bargaining chip they hold if used skillfully?

Controllers are acutely aware of how weak their position is to push back.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 05:12
  #17286 (permalink)  
 
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You think he'd do a Reagan?
Could they be replaced this time without a grinding stop to America Inc?
Granted it is a damn big risk for them.
It's a high stress, burn out career. Could 40 - 50 % decide to pursue other opportunities.
Maybe a precariously paid government job is not looking so good anymore?
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 05:20
  #17287 (permalink)  
 
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A correction ....

Hardly anyone who is anyone remembers Smedley Butler today.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 06:43
  #17288 (permalink)  
 
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If the pilots refuse to fly because the ATC isnít reliably safe, who could blame them? The the flight attendants are concerned the pax arenít getting screened as carefully, or the ramp doesnít feel like they are taking risks loading improperly screened, hiwcelse do they commit to air safety? Itís taken years to make the skies as save as they are today. No one wants a major tragedy on their watch. Everyone is stressed out from the no pay. Who knows what other jiobs the TSA and ATC have had to take to keep the money coming in.

No one wants this. No one. But lives are being put at risk over a vanity wall
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 06:50
  #17289 (permalink)  
 
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Humpty Trumpy wanted a wall...
Government agencies had a great fall.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 07:15
  #17290 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting to know how little you think of your fellow veterans chuks.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 07:29
  #17291 (permalink)  
 
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Despite those challenges controllers showed up. One they are professionals who wouldn't want the safety of the national airspace system questioned because of their actions. Second, there are unpleasent memories of 1981.
Don't mistake actions of individuals doing what they have to to feed their family as some collective clout attempting to influence the outcome.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 11:22
  #17292 (permalink)  
 
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Oh, it's not me ....

West Coast, have a good look at how little our current president, and the one before him, thought of our veterans. Obama did not even bother to learn the proper pronunciation of "corpsman," pronouncing it twice as "corpse-man" in speeches delivered before, among others, veterans. Trump ... just look at how this miserable, draft-dodging coward dealt with our national bird:

That is not enough for you, nor for OB, WC, so also please have a think about how the Orange Abomination dealt with the widow of that guy who got waxed in Mali; the parents of that guy who got waxed in Iraq; and with a true hero, John McCain.

Never mind McCain's politics here, which we can take or leave; just think about all those years in brutal captivity in Hanoi when with just a word or two he could have gone free. How long would Cadet Bone Spurs have held out then? (Feel free to give us a number expressed in seconds, or even milliseconds.)

Further, WC, if you still do not understand how the most of our fellow citizens think of veterans, aside from random bouts of flag-waving, please go out onto the streets of wherever it is you live, or else onto the beach, ask a random selection of Californians "Who was Smedley Butler?" and then get back to us with the results of that. (Come to think of it, that would probably be a good way to smoke out "Walts," or at least the ones who want to fake former membership in the "Crotch," Uncle Sam's Misguided Children.

Look, dear boy, we are expected to serve, merely to cop a few medals if we are lucky, and then, most of us, to fade into the woodwork. (I got three medals, one for signing up, two more for being mostly a Saigon warrior, and a Meritorious Unit Commendation for whatever. Once a year, if I had not forgotten my DD-214, I could have been given a free donut and a cup of coffee in Brattleboro on Veterans' Day to add to my bag.)

I know who I am, and I know who my fellow veterans are, when very few of us will fit well upon a pedestal. Unlike my (veteran) mother I do not much mind what the average non-veteran thinks of us, that we were played for suckers. If you labor under the illusion that the polity thinks more highly of the average veteran than of those who took due care not to go into harm's way, think again. After all, they voted for one of the most flagrant Vietnam-era draft-dodgers, Cadet Bone Spurs, without giving a thought to how he thinks of veterans, namely as people of much lower status than himself. If he had any real respect, how could he have behaved as he did in those three cases I cited?

West Coast, you yourself have lined up behind this guy who craps all over veterans, so tell me, please, how you really feel towards the greater community of veterans. That doesn't really matter to you, how Trump treats us, does it?

Last edited by chuks; 29th Jan 2019 at 14:25.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 14:08
  #17293 (permalink)  
 
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There you go again, Chuks, dragging me into your silly diatribes. I've uttered not one word here about veterans. I am not one myself, never pretended to be one.
I have the greatest respect for our veterans, including you, and those vets here who either agree with my postings or who denigrate them.
Trump has shown a hell of a lot more respect for them than his predecessor ever did, who couldn't even be arsed to go to Dover to be present when a deceased soldier returned home.
McCain? Never denigrated his war heroism. But he turned into an ass of a politician in his last years.

The best thing Trump can do for veterans is to stop sending our precious young people into unwinnable hostilities, and to recognize that we've been fiddling around in the middle east long enough. Stop listening to the Generals, and bring them home.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 14:33
  #17294 (permalink)  
 
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Then & Now

Original Posting by West Coast:
Despite those challenges controllers showed up. One they are professionals who wouldn't want the safety of the national airspace system questioned because of their actions. Second, there are unpleasent memories of 1981.
Don't mistake actions of individuals doing what they have to to feed their family as some collective clout attempting to influence the outcome.
WC,
You didn't paint the whole picture, so here is the rest of it you failed to mention. In 1981 the labor market, which received its second jolt in as many years, was experiencing precipitous declines by the final quarter of 1981. The number of unemployed reached 9.6 million, 8.8 % of the work force by the end of the year.There were also large increases in the number of persons reporting discouragement over job prospects and the number still employed but reporting reduced workweeks.

So if Trump in 2019 did what Reagan did in 1981, fire all the striking ATCs or no-shows, explain where the replacements would come from since the unemployment rate is under 4%, e.g., full employment by most measures. Is there a difference between ATCs in 1981 and 2019 in terms of professionalism as you seem to indicate? Are there more aircraft in the US airspace in 2019 than in 1981? You have to admit or should admit Trump didn't do his homework (never does) in shutting down the government in 2019, just another Trump hip-shoot where he shot himself in the foot.

Don't mistake 1981 for 2019...
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 14:41
  #17295 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
There you go again, Chuks, dragging me into your silly diatribes. I've uttered not one word here about veterans. I am not one myself, never pretended to be one.
I have the greatest respect for our veterans, including you, and those vets here who either agree with my postings or who denigrate them.
Trump has shown a hell of a lot more respect for them than his predecessor ever did, who couldn't even be arsed to go to Dover to be present when a deceased soldier returned home.
McCain? Never denigrated his war heroism. But he turned into an ass of a politician in his last years.

The best thing Trump can do for veterans is to stop sending our precious young people into unwinnable hostilities, and to recognize that we've been fiddling around in the middle east long enough. Stop listening to the Generals, and bring them home.
Personally I think a lot of folks seriously overestimate the Influence of a President in military affairs.
Contingency plans are constantly updated, often with tinted glasses input from all agencies that can get their oar in the waters.
No President ever has had the intimate personal experience to draw up those plans, let alone the machinations to successfully execute them.
Like senior military commanders, plans and projected outcomes are presented, risk assessments done. The inner circle sits down with whoever the President is, and the buck stops there.
Matters not what the initial of the last name is.

However, ever since WWII, there appears to have been no finite goal, no whatever it takes to win, no plans for the inevitable ďWhat do we do nowĒ moment.

Anyone care to postulate why?

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Old 29th Jan 2019, 15:14
  #17296 (permalink)  
 
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Quick fact check ....

Obama visited Dover Air Force Base at least once, probably more often than that. (Go look it up as if it matters, OB, but you are factually wrong to claim, as Trump probably has, that he never did that.) On the other hand, OB, please try to find at least one totally disrespectful, childish outburst that Obama aimed at the survivors of a deceased combat veteran. (Trump did that twice, both times very publicly.) Moving right along, OB, did Obama tell us that he did not consider John McCain a war hero? (Trump did that too, also very publicly, even going so far as prematurely raising the White House flag from half-staff after McCain's death.)

You guys can't have it both ways, coming out with this "Thank you for your service," guff or else making out to be a member in good standing of the greater veteran community while also lining up behind this draft-dodging coward who very often shows his complete lack of respect for those who have served.

My God! Look at how Trump just behaved towards General Mattis, needing to pretend to have fired him after Mattis resigned over a matter of principle, even offering to stay on a while in order to give Trump a smooth transition. There is Trump's show of "respect."

There's no automatic gloss to being a "veteran." Here, my late father-in-law served, as did several of my wife's uncles. My father-in-law got the Wound Badge in exchange for one eye and one ear, and both uncles are classed as MIA in Russia. No parades for them, though, since they served under that same flag we saw flying at Charlottesville. On the other hand, yes, there still should be a certain amount of respect for anyone who served his country, depending ....

The way Trump feels entitled to just dump on everyone, veterans and their survivors included, is inexcusable.

OB, it is not the "Generals [sic]" who send our men overseas, but our politicians. LBJ, following on from Kennedy, sent me to Vietnam (as a volunteer, not a draftee). Don't blame General Westmoreland for my going there. Come to that, if you really think that Trump is going to pull our troops out of Syria just as he said he would, then you must be a fool. I think you know better than that.

When you are "young, dumb and full of cum" then you can quite happily volunteer. Then you see yourself as the star of your own personal war movie, very far from a "precious young [person]" who might well come home in a big alloy box. A friend who is a former Marine told me about how they showed his officer class The Sands of Iwo Jima as part of the pitch to get them to choose "Infantry" and be real war hero Marines. He laughed at them, asking if they had missed the part in the movie where Sergeant Stryker (played by real-life draft-dodger John Wayne) died. Then he signed up for "Transport."

When I was doing a project that involved portraiture of veterans I met with a man who was a genius, a professor of physics. (He had been in the Navy during the Second World War, when he taught Navy personnel about the mysteries of underwater sound propagation.) On a side table in his living room there was a picture of one of his grand-children as an enlisted Marine. We did not talk about that.

You guys go right ahead and line up behind Trump; that is your prerogative as loyal Americans (except for the way that the guy seems to be in Putin's pocket). Just do not try to have it both ways and also claim that you give equal weight to showing respect for veterans, even those of you who, like me, actually are veterans. There you are lining up behind one of the least respectful of men towards veterans.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 16:38
  #17297 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham:
Trump has shown a hell of a lot more respect for them than his predecessor ever did, who couldn't even be arsed to go to Dover to be present when a deceased soldier returned home.
McCain? Never denigrated his war heroism. But he turned into an ass of a politician in his last years.
Are you having whiteout conditions up there where you live?
Two examples where you are totally wrong:
  • October 29, 2009 - President Obama's trip on Thursday to Dover Air Force Base, his first, came as he grappled with a decision on Afghanistan.
  • August 9, 2011 - DOVER, Del. — President Obama traveled to Dover Air Force Base on Tuesday to pay his respects to the 30 U.S. troops who were killed Saturday when their Chinook helicopter was shot down in Afghanistan.
So far, Trump has made two visits to Dover AFB. But,

October 7, 2017
Trump played golf at his Club near Washington DC the day a body of one of the four US Green Beret soldiers was returned to Dover AFB from Niger known as "Trump’s Benghazi”. When questioned, he said in due time he would call the family and then claimed Obama never called the families of soldiers or sailors that lost their lives, an outright lie.

Obama never attacked a Gold Star Family like Trump did for political reasons, another example of Trump's NYC Mafia education by Roy Cohen and his disrespectful attitude.

Trump said McCain was captured in Vietnam. And then went on to say that he didn't like captured heroes. You can color it and flavor it however you want but that is denigrating McCain's war heroism.

Remember, Trump was never got closer to the military than the military academy his parents sent him to because they couldn't handle him and hoped the academy could, they didn't. It was across the Hudson River from West Point. Trump never entered military service because his father got him exemptions on 5 or 6 occasions, bone spurs being the purported cause. Interestingly he never experienced the problem again, walked and played golf everywhere for years, except in November 2018, a purported reoccurrence caused him to miss going to the WW I memorial ceremony at a cemetery in France, it was raining at the time...

So I don't know where you see Trump's superior respect for the military really is compared to past presidents, somewhere in the whiteout conditions I guess...

Last edited by Turbine D; 29th Jan 2019 at 16:46. Reason: added paragraph
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 17:06
  #17298 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
West Coast, have a good look at how little our current president, and the one before him, thought of our veterans. Obama did not even bother to learn the proper pronunciation of "corpsman," pronouncing it twice as "corpse-man" in speeches delivered before, among others, veterans. Trump ... just look at how this miserable, draft-dodging coward dealt with our national bird: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M41aZX5ijVM

That is not enough for you, nor for OB, WC, so also please have a think about how the Orange Abomination dealt with the widow of that guy who got waxed in Mali; the parents of that guy who got waxed in Iraq; and with a true hero, John McCain.

Never mind McCain's politics here, which we can take or leave; just think about all those years in brutal captivity in Hanoi when with just a word or two he could have gone free. How long would Cadet Bone Spurs have held out then? (Feel free to give us a number expressed in seconds, or even milliseconds.)

Further, WC, if you still do not understand how the most of our fellow citizens think of veterans, aside from random bouts of flag-waving, please go out onto the streets of wherever it is you live, or else onto the beach, ask a random selection of Californians "Who was Smedley Butler?" and then get back to us with the results of that. (Come to think of it, that would probably be a good way to smoke out "Walts," or at least the ones who want to fake former membership in the "Crotch," Uncle Sam's Misguided Children.

Look, dear boy, we are expected to serve, merely to cop a few medals if we are lucky, and then, most of us, to fade into the woodwork. (I got three medals, one for signing up, two more for being mostly a Saigon warrior, and a Meritorious Unit Commendation for whatever. Once a year, if I had not forgotten my DD-214, I could have been given a free donut and a cup of coffee in Brattleboro on Veterans' Day to add to my bag.)

I know who I am, and I know who my fellow veterans are, when very few of us will fit well upon a pedestal. Unlike my (veteran) mother I do not much mind what the average non-veteran thinks of us, that we were played for suckers. If you labor under the illusion that the polity thinks more highly of the average veteran than of those who took due care not to go into harm's way, think again. After all, they voted for one of the most flagrant Vietnam-era draft-dodgers, Cadet Bone Spurs, without giving a thought to how he thinks of veterans, namely as people of much lower status than himself. If he had any real respect, how could he have behaved as he did in those three cases I cited?

West Coast, you yourself have lined up behind this guy who craps all over veterans, so tell me, please, how you really feel towards the greater community of veterans. That doesn't really matter to you, how Trump treats us, does it?
What a waste of time and a massive case of whatabboutery. Trump had nothing to do with your decision to insult veterans, given the opportunity to address or walk back your comments you choose not to.

YOU were the topic of discussion after YOU disparaged veterans. You’ve taken shots at veterans in the past as well. This repeated pattern demonstrates you share certain traits and habits with Trump. Trump insults vets, you follow suit and insult vets, repeatedly. You have more in common with Trump then you’d like to admit.

Out of curiosity, were you drafted?


Last edited by West Coast; 29th Jan 2019 at 17:54.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 17:53
  #17299 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Turbine D View Post
WC,
You didn't paint the whole picture, so here is the rest of it you failed to mention. In 1981 the labor market, which received its second jolt in as many years, was experiencing precipitous declines by the final quarter of 1981. The number of unemployed reached 9.6 million, 8.8 % of the work force by the end of the year.There were also large increases in the number of persons reporting discouragement over job prospects and the number still employed but reporting reduced workweeks.

So if Trump in 2019 did what Reagan did in 1981, fire all the striking ATCs or no-shows, explain where the replacements would come from since the unemployment rate is under 4%, e.g., full employment by most measures. Is there a difference between ATCs in 1981 and 2019 in terms of professionalism as you seem to indicate? Are there more aircraft in the US airspace in 2019 than in 1981? You have to admit or should admit Trump didn't do his homework (never does) in shutting down the government in 2019, just another Trump hip-shoot where he shot himself in the foot.

Don't mistake 1981 for 2019...
Iím not mistaking anything. Just like 1981 should there be any industrial action (which is illegal per terms of employment) the controllers and their union leadership would be standing in disbelief when their hand was called and they were fired. They know this which is exactly why there were no threats from NATCA of striking. There were no threats of collective absences having seen ALPA get hammered for similar.

Controllers on average make more than twice the US average, have a great pension (no 401K, a real pension at age 56) and itís a prestigious position of public trust. 140K plus a year lure (significantly more at centers and busy towers and TRACONS) would reconstitute the work group. Short term pain is all NATCA has in its back pocket, thatís not enough to test the waters.

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Old 29th Jan 2019, 18:11
  #17300 (permalink)  
 
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Good question, well put ....

No, WC, I volunteered. I was Regular Army, with a service number that began with "RA" instead of "US." I would tell it to you so that you could look me up, except that it is Top Secret.

Seriously, though, who wants to fake a claim that they volunteered for Vietnam, because they believed what they had been told about that war, that we were in it to win? Here I was, just trying to persuade all of us that I am way smart, so why would I fake being that stupid?

You guys! You really don't like it up you, do you? It's okay for Trump, your object of regard, to empty the old slop bucket on whoever is on his target list for the day, even if that is a pair of Gold Star parents, but one little jab about how few of us know who Smedley Butler was and you have to pull the lace hanky out of your sleeve and get to fanning your brow.

Go and do that survey among your fellow beachboys, WC. If you come up with any who are not former Marines and who know who Smedley Butler was, then I shall go out into the freezing North German drizzle to strip naked and flog myself to cries of "Donald Trump, long may he rule us!" Off you go now ....
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