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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 9th Nov 2018, 07:19
  #16441 (permalink)  
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/l...fall-kq6x9ww7x

US Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 85, breaks ribs in fall

Democrats held their collective breath last night after the oldest justice and most prominent liberal on the US Supreme Court was taken to hospital with three broken ribs. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 85, one of four Democrat-appointed justices on the nine-strong bench, had gone home after falling in her office in Washington. She went to hospital “after experiencing discomfort overnight”, the court said.

The justice, who was appointed to the court in 1993 by President Clinton, has previously made clear her determination to continue despite other health scares.

For Democrats, her injuries raise a nightmare scenario: were she forced to step down from the lifetime role, Mr Trump would have the chance to appoint his third justice in a little over two years. His first two, Neil Gorsuch, 51, and Brett Kavanaugh, 53, have already given the court a built-in conservative majority, perhaps for a generation. The appointment of a third would increase that advantage to 6-3........


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Old 9th Nov 2018, 14:06
  #16442 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/l...fall-kq6x9ww7x

US Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 85, breaks ribs in fall

Democrats held their collective breath last night after the oldest justice and most prominent liberal on the US Supreme Court was taken to hospital with three broken ribs. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 85, one of four Democrat-appointed justices on the nine-strong bench, had gone home after falling in her office in Washington. She went to hospital “after experiencing discomfort overnight”, the court said.

The justice, who was appointed to the court in 1993 by President Clinton, has previously made clear her determination to continue despite other health scares.

For Democrats, her injuries raise a nightmare scenario: were she forced to step down from the lifetime role, Mr Trump would have the chance to appoint his third justice in a little over two years. His first two, Neil Gorsuch, 51, and Brett Kavanaugh, 53, have already given the court a built-in conservative majority, perhaps for a generation. The appointment of a third would increase that advantage to 6-3........


Why on earth is the highest court a completely political entity? Seems to be a complete mockery of democracy that its just accepted they will decide things according to party loyalty rather than, and you know, the correct interpretation of the law.

Genuinely always perplexed me that. And people cheer it on and excitedly ponder the prospects of judges making it through the next few years so they can get their guy/girl on. Does noone see how f****d that is, whichever side has the presidency ?
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 14:21
  #16443 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neila83 View Post
Why on earth is the highest court a completely political entity? Seems to be a complete mockery of democracy that its just accepted they will decide things according to party loyalty rather than, and you know, the correct interpretation of the law.

Genuinely always perplexed me that. And people cheer it on and excitedly ponder the prospects of judges making it through the next few years so they can get their guy/girl on. Does noone see how f****d that is, whichever side has the presidency ?
I think it evolved into a political entity over time. When it became difficult to pass Law through Congress the politicians discovered that they could achieve the same effect through the Supreme Court - Roe V Wade legalizing abortion being the prime example.

Quite how you change it now I have no idea..
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 14:31
  #16444 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone with an ounce of decent moral and ethical conscience knows that Trump has been found to be unfit for his role. The most powerful human being on planet earth "should" exude all those qualities necessary to make the world a safer, more peaceful and harmonious place to live. We would want that for our kids future, right? Right?
So someone who is corrupt, racist, sexist, disingenuous, a compulsive liar, a fraud and a convicted bankrupt (x6), surely 'hints' that maybe he's not the best role model.
History will depict this person for what he is...but listening to news reports, watching TV and reading some excrutiatingly creepy posters comments on here - it is going to take a little longer to dislodge him than one first expected.
I suspect when:
The mexican wall isn't actually built.
When Obama care remains.
When the rust belt - stays rusty.
When the coal mines become unprofitable.
When trade restrictions become a two way process.
When immigration doesn't change.
When US debt bites.
When the press continue to report negatively on him.
When the prostitutes win their NDA court cases.
When the barrage of the 3500 law suits filed against him actually begin to bite.
When his son gets charged with perverting the course of justice.
When the House launches a raft of subpoena's against him next year.
When impeachment proceedings commence.

A light bulb will come on, in the minds of decent law abiding US citizens when they realise - "yep, we picked a lemon didn't we"..............and one after another republican will line up behind every democrat and change the course of history.

As someone once said recently:

John McCain would have made a better president than Trump.......................and he still will!
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 14:35
  #16445 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neila83 View Post
Why on earth is the highest court a completely political entity? Seems to be a complete mockery of democracy that its just accepted they will decide things according to party loyalty rather than, and you know, the correct interpretation of the law.

Genuinely always perplexed me that. And people cheer it on and excitedly ponder the prospects of judges making it through the next few years so they can get their guy/girl on. Does noone see how f****d that is, whichever side has the presidency ?
Well, since the US is a republic, and for the federal bench judges are appointed and reviewed by senate, I guess making a mockery of democracy is part of the system.

Should the US change it's form of govt to a democracy, then judges would be a pure election choice by the people. Certainly no chance of partisanship creeping in with that program - eh? Maybe you should study up on US form of govt, and on judges being elected in the various state and find out how partisan that process is. Maybe we should print the names of potential judges on a ping-pong ball and use one of those lotto machines to select judges. That way, merit and judicial integrity play no part in the process. But wait - how do we select the names to go on the ping pong balls? I know - we'll use a swim suit competition. Oh wait - Miss America got rid of that, too misogynistic. Scrabble tournament? lolz....
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 16:26
  #16446 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ethicalconundrum View Post
Well, since the US is a republic, and for the federal bench judges are appointed and reviewed by senate, I guess making a mockery of democracy is part of the system.

Should the US change it's form of govt to a democracy, then judges would be a pure election choice by the people. Certainly no chance of partisanship creeping in with that program - eh? Maybe you should study up on US form of govt, and on judges being elected in the various state and find out how partisan that process is. Maybe we should print the names of potential judges on a ping-pong ball and use one of those lotto machines to select judges. That way, merit and judicial integrity play no part in the process. But wait - how do we select the names to go on the ping pong balls? I know - we'll use a swim suit competition. Oh wait - Miss America got rid of that, too misogynistic. Scrabble tournament? lolz....
Maybe you should check out how it works in some of the better democracies. No, we don't use ping pong balls, and no, we are no banana republic where a politician can stop investigations.
Never believed a "country" could go down the drain so fast.
Per
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 16:52
  #16447 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner View Post
Maybe you should check out how it works in some of the better democracies. No, we don't use ping pong balls, and no, we are no banana republic where a politician can stop investigations.
Never believed a "country" could go down the drain so fast.
Per

Careful. The investigation was started by politicians speaking as a group and may (not yet happened) be stopped by one man with the title of president.

I will withdraw if this gets to a body of politicians in our congress and they manage to do something other than politicize. Of course it aint over until SCOTUS votes
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 17:29
  #16448 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
Careful. The investigation was started by politicians speaking as a group and may (not yet happened) be stopped by one man with the title of president.

I will withdraw if this gets to a body of politicians in our congress and they manage to do something other than politicize. Of course it aint over until SCOTUS votes
Saw you on TV, must say, you keep well. Fountain of youth? Off topic? I guess.
Per
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 20:04
  #16449 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ethicalconundrum View Post
Well, since the US is a republic, and for the federal bench judges are appointed and reviewed by senate, I guess making a mockery of democracy is part of the system.

Should the US change it's form of govt to a democracy, then judges would be a pure election choice by the people. Certainly no chance of partisanship creeping in with that program - eh? Maybe you should study up on US form of govt, and on judges being elected in the various state and find out how partisan that process is. Maybe we should print the names of potential judges on a ping-pong ball and use one of those lotto machines to select judges. That way, merit and judicial integrity play no part in the process. But wait - how do we select the names to go on the ping pong balls? I know - we'll use a swim suit competition. Oh wait - Miss America got rid of that, too misogynistic. Scrabble tournament? lolz....
Yeh judge ping pong lottery is my favourite time of year! We make a real do out of it, have a sweepstake, get some drinks in and dress up as judges. Way more fun than how you guys do it!

Your ignorance of the world outside the USA never ceases to astound. Maybe best you keep it that way, I dread to think what might happen if you realised how the wool has been pulled over your eyes all your life.

Fascinating site this, and at least it keeps the loons off the streets.

Oh and I hate to break it to you, but the US is a democracy. Or supposed to be at least. Who told you a Republic isn't a democracy? Or perhaps you were talking about this?
​https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/11/06/united-states-isnt-democracy-and-was-never-intended-be/​​​​​​

Last edited by neila83; 9th Nov 2018 at 20:15.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 21:13
  #16450 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neila83 View Post
Yeh judge ping pong lottery is my favourite time of year! We make a real do out of it, have a sweepstake, get some drinks in and dress up as judges. Way more fun than how you guys do it!

Your ignorance of the world outside the USA never ceases to astound. Maybe best you keep it that way, I dread to think what might happen if you realised how the wool has been pulled over your eyes all your life.

Fascinating site this, and at least it keeps the loons off the streets.

Oh and I hate to break it to you, but the US is a democracy. Or supposed to be at least. Who told you a Republic isn't a democracy? Or perhaps you were talking about this?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...​​
Pretty sure I've been way more places than you, there whippersnapper. Not just that, but done more things than you've even considered. But - meh. The US was never, and is not now mob rule. So, go ahead - break it to me ya miserable hump. I don't really rely on what you read on the internet as the gospel truth. Information on how govts run are best left to those who designed and made them in the first place. I will leave it to you to find the info on your own. Get back to me when schools over in - say, 4-6 years?
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 21:18
  #16451 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner View Post
Never believed a "country" could go down the drain so fast.
Per
Man, I hope you're right. People will stop borrowing our currency, people will stop trying to break into our drainage 'country'. Other nations will stop trying to steal our technology, and mass media entertainment. Nations will stop threatening us. Jeez, if one we could go down the drain faster, all these things would end!

Until then, jobs - up, economy - booming, rights - restored, elitism - checked/declining, armed forces - stronger, national security - better, ad-infinitum.

[edit: I guess it must hurt - seeing all this winning by the conservatives. I'd like to work up some sympathy, but y'all just keep stepping in the dog-poo. Maybe scrape it off, and try to see how you've been so badly misled. Nah - stay in the dark, rail at the success. Start more investigations. Who cares! Having too much fun and making too much money to live that kind of life. Cya...]
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 21:32
  #16452 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner View Post
Saw you on TV, must say, you keep well. Fountain of youth? Off topic? I guess.
Per
after last months internal heart surgery, the doctors who reviewed me said I was young for my age which is above average for this group I would fit nicely into SCOTUS
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 21:34
  #16453 (permalink)  
 
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Ethical, could not care less about democrats or republicans. I don't get to vote. I'll leave that circus to you, but boy is it entertaining.
Per
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 22:35
  #16454 (permalink)  
 
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There is nothing about a Republic that excludes small-d democracy. Any government in which power and rule are truly a "thing belonging to the people" (res publica) is a Republic. As opposed to a thing belonging to a nobility or a monarch or other very limited ruling class.

The fact that our republic is up to its ears at this moment counting votes from individual Americans (democracy) demonstrates that perfectly. We are not a pure or direct democracy, wherein the individual voters decide all the issues themselves (a la Br*xit) - instead we democratically choose "deciders" - our representatives and Senators - by direct 50%+1 vote. There are some filtering mechanisms in the Presidential vote (state-by-state winner-take-all distribution of electoral college votes), but it takes a very close popular vote for the EC to actually choose someone other than the demos voted for.

It is true that the Federal judiciary, including the SCOTUS, was intentionally isolated as much as possible from politics and the demos, by way of making the appointments for life, and solely by the President, with the advice and consent of the Senate. And up until recently, requiring a large majority of the Senate (60% to end debate and pass a candidate, not just 50%+1) which in theory meant a candidate acceptable to all parties. But politics (the affairs of the city-state - the polis)

Over its history, the Republic of the United States has become more democratic, by expanding the vote to those other than the property-owning (until 1819-56, depending on State) white (until 1870) male (until 1920) "aristocracy" who could vote in 1789.

Our Founding Fathers had probably all read their Plato (The Republic) and understood Plato's belief that the ideal Republic was governed by an elite - an Aristocracy of the best minds, including a philospher king. But was doomed to decay through stages of Timocracy (military rule), Oligarchy (rule by the rich), Democracy (rule by the people, leading to anarchy) and finally a Tyranny. Their "imperfect genius" was to come up with a structure of divided power - between States and the National govenment; between the legislature and the Executive and the Judiciary; between the people and their institutions - that would short-circuit the revolutions and collapses Plato predicted. A balance between intellect, arms, force, and democratic choice, that would prevent an ultimate Tyranny.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 22:47
  #16455 (permalink)  
 
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The Judiciary as a Branch of government has one task. Determine through established process and voluminous precedent the “Constitutionality” of laws created by a legislature.

Judges are seen on a continuum from strict construction to “living document”.

Conservative politicians cleave to the approach that is Conservative, strict construction, “originalist”. Liberal politicians prefer the “living document”, which means to them, “we can interpret the document however we like, so as to morph the American Process into what WE want, not what the Founders demanded”.

The Court, then, to this extent, is not political. Neither position derives from politics, but from an honest argument. The ends do not define the means.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 22:49
  #16456 (permalink)  
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The only reason the American public can't hear Putin chuckling Sovietly over the success of his plan to disrupt western democracy is because of the volume of Joseph Goebbels laughing from his grave at the success of his 1930's right wing propaganda playbook being used against the world's must gullible electorate.

Khoroshaya rabota!
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 23:34
  #16457 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
There is nothing about a Republic that excludes small-d democracy. Any government in which power and rule are truly a "thing belonging to the people" (res publica) is a Republic. As opposed to a thing belonging to a nobility or a monarch or other very limited ruling class.

The fact that our republic is up to its ears at this moment counting votes from individual Americans (democracy) demonstrates that perfectly. We are not a pure or direct democracy, wherein the individual voters decide all the issues themselves (a la Br*xit) - instead we democratically choose "deciders" - our representatives and Senators - by direct 50%+1 vote. There are some filtering mechanisms in the Presidential vote (state-by-state winner-take-all distribution of electoral college votes), but it takes a very close popular vote for the EC to actually choose someone other than the demos voted for.

It is true that the Federal judiciary, including the SCOTUS, was intentionally isolated as much as possible from politics and the demos, by way of making the appointments for life, and solely by the President, with the advice and consent of the Senate. And up until recently, requiring a large majority of the Senate (60% to end debate and pass a candidate, not just 50%+1) which in theory meant a candidate acceptable to all parties. But politics (the affairs of the city-state - the polis)

Over its history, the Republic of the United States has become more democratic, by expanding the vote to those other than the property-owning (until 1819-56, depending on State) white (until 1870) male (until 1920) "aristocracy" who could vote in 1789.

Our Founding Fathers had probably all read their Plato (The Republic) and understood Plato's belief that the ideal Republic was governed by an elite - an Aristocracy of the best minds, including a philospher king. But was doomed to decay through stages of Timocracy (military rule), Oligarchy (rule by the rich), Democracy (rule by the people, leading to anarchy) and finally a Tyranny. Their "imperfect genius" was to come up with a structure of divided power - between States and the National government; between the legislature and the Executive and the Judiciary; between the people and their institutions - that would short-circuit the revolutions and collapses Plato predicted. A balance between intellect, arms, force, and democratic choice, that would prevent an ultimate Tyranny.
Thank you for that explanation Pattern. It is particularly useful for those not from your shores who, while interested observers and knowing the broad historical strokes, are not masters of the exact representative structure and construct.

For the ha'penny that it is worth, I think many of us on the outside fear that a tyranny is exactly what 40% of your electorate desires. You have a "leader" who brags about murdering someone on 5th avenue and getting by with it while his acolytes cheer for him to lock up opponents without any due process. Yet when we voice our concerns about what we see from the outside we are not so politely told to sod off. Rather like telling someone they have bad breath to which they respond "No I don't." Purposeful and wanton lies are now the coin of the realm.

In the meantime keep up the good explanations for those of us who wish to understand what is going on.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 23:51
  #16458 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Brakes on
i hope this will finally make you understand.
I do. Education can handle simple ignorance, but your willful ignorance is more time consuming. Are you worth the time? No.
As to the cartoon, I am not sure why Frau Merkel is depicted as manning a mortar position in badly fitting clothes. Has her recent series of set backs in German politics evoked a bunker mentality?
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 23:56
  #16459 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
There is nothing about a Republic that excludes small-d democracy.
You can fairly say that our form is government is a hybrid.
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 02:20
  #16460 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I do. Education can handle simple ignorance, but your willful ignorance is more time consuming. Are you worth the time? No.
As to the cartoon, I am not sure why Frau Merkel is depicted as manning a mortar position in badly fitting clothes. Has her recent series of set backs in German politics evoked a bunker mentality?
It would seem that educatiuon can' help simple or any kind of ignorance. You being a case in point. To your cartoon rumblings I'll answer in Lonewolf mode: Mortars are not manned by civilians and certainly not by heads of state. Any army has soldiers better equipped to do the job and, anyway, more modern equipment is available in 2018.
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