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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 2nd Sep 2018, 20:01
  #15661 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner View Post
I sleep very well without the support of the US, thank you very much.
Per
That’s the luxury of knowing the US is prepared to pay with our blood to guarantee your safety. You’re welcome.


You remind me of the liberals at the height of the Cold War. Snobs, enjoying the protection while looking down on the protector. Some have evolved now that the US role in NATO is being reviewed and they realize what was taken for granted may go away.

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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 20:12
  #15662 (permalink)  
 
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"DEATH TO THE AMERICANS"

(But keep sending us the money)
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 20:41
  #15663 (permalink)  
 
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Mariner:
Perhaps I'm a bit kinder to your viewpoint than WC.

I have no problem with those who hold a more left-leaning view to mine feeling "pissed off" these days. It's true that many of your priorities, "agenda" if you will, are now on the back burner with this administration.

But what you are missing is that many of us on the right have felt "pissed off" at the direction of the country for a number of years, not helped by recent Republican leadership and certainly aggravated in the prior administration. Our concerns were ignored and our views denigrated as invalid and deplorable. As a result of several odd conditions, we now have in place leadership which we think is making some progress, albeit in a messy way.

I'm quite sure that, for instance, Norway and the USA (the people and the cultures, not necessarily the leadership) are in sync on the issues dear to us, if not on the methods to achieve them.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 21:59
  #15664 (permalink)  
 
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In synch?

My God, Man, just look at one of your fellow Trump fans' invitation, above, for non-Americans to cower in fear and to submit to Trump's New World Order. If that's what you think of as being in synch, well, yes, "Good luck with that."

If the USA wants to lose its mind, to go along with this screeching, bullying coward, foreigners are going to turn increasingly to letting the USA, once the self-styled Leader of the Free World, endure its abusive love affair with Trump until some foreseen circumstance puts an end to the madness.

About the only real reason for putting up with Trump is that he scratches some sort of Yahoo rash, one that originally only seemed to afflict a minority of the US population, just enough of us for him to squeak into office. Just how, OB, do you see people with a bit of breeding being willing to go along with this nonsense, to become in synch?

That's an interesting choice of terms, one that Professor Victor Klemperer commented on in LTI, his work on the language of the Third Reich. In German it's Gleichschaltung, and it applies to the synchronization of devices. Using it with regard to human thought shows a certain lack of respect for our shared humanity, just as that earlier comment about being "very afraid" does.

I really do hope that someday soon you guys making excuses for Trump, thus excusing yourselves for tamely going along with him, will be served big, steaming helpings of crow. Meanwhile, how comical that here we have to read foreigners expressing American values in opposition to ... Americans.

You tell 'em, Per! Actually, to be out of step with Trump is to be in step with traditional American, and traditionally humane, values.

Screw synching up with Donald Trump! We leave that to you zombies.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 02:00
  #15665 (permalink)  
 
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I guess as usual, Chuks, you didn't really read and comprehend what I wrote before launching into another of your 7-paragraph stream of consciousness screeds.

Sad(!)
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 06:56
  #15666 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Mariner:
Perhaps I'm a bit kinder to your viewpoint than WC.

I have no problem with those who hold a more left-leaning view to mine feeling "pissed off" these days. It's true that many of your priorities, "agenda" if you will, are now on the back burner with this administration.

But what you are missing is that many of us on the right have felt "pissed off" at the direction of the country for a number of years, not helped by recent Republican leadership and certainly aggravated in the prior administration. Our concerns were ignored and our views denigrated as invalid and deplorable. As a result of several odd conditions, we now have in place leadership which we think is making some progress, albeit in a messy way.

I'm quite sure that, for instance, Norway and the USA (the people and the cultures, not necessarily the leadership) are in sync on the issues dear to us, if not on the methods to achieve them.
Most Americans and Norwegians "are in step", and have been for years. I've visited USA frequently since '69 and worked closely with many of you guys, so have a fairly good idea.
When Trump declares that NATO's Jens Stoltenberg, former leader of the Labour party, former anti-NATO activist and former PM is his biggest fan, it makes you wonder if politicians are.
Per
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 07:48
  #15667 (permalink)  
 
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Double posting one of the 99?


In your abstract meandering way, are you connecting Trump to anti semetism?


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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 10:21
  #15668 (permalink)  
 
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Is Trump an anti-Semite?

I have no real idea about that. Given that Ivana, his favorite daughter, converted to Orthodox Judaism in order to marry (Orthodox Jewish) Jared Kushner under Jewish religious law then the Jews are probably the only American minority ethnic group that Trump takes care to leave off his ever-expanding list of those he dislikes and freely defames.

Certainly it's true that Trump uses many Jews in his Trump Organization, such as until recently Michael Cohen. That is another argument against Trump hating Jews in general. Jewish Michael Cohen in particular, though, oh yes!

Then there is Mr. Allen Weisselberg, Trump's CFO, who I assume is also a landsman given that he is "of Jewish descent." (That is from always 100% reliable Wikipedia.) He certainly is the highest-placed key employee of the Trump Organization, someone in whom Trump has placed great trust for many years. (Yes, he is the same Allen Weisselberg who was recently granted immunity from prosecution so that he could tell the Mueller inquiry what they wanted to know about the inner workings of the Trump organization.) I do not think that an anti-Semite would have a Jew as his CFO. Again, though, might Trump now be hating Jewish Allen Weisselberg for having "flipped"? I think so, yes.

On the other hand, are there strong parallels to be drawn between the rise of Hitler and the way he maintained himself in power for 13 years, and the rise and style of misrule of Trump? Oh, you betcha!

Just look at OB's recent use of the term "in synch." That is exactly the sense of the original German word Gleichschaltung as it was misused by Hitler & Co. Not that this makes OB or Trump a Nazi, just that there's one more obvious parallel there between Nazi and Trump practices and beliefs, assuming that you know where to look for Gleichschaltung in the history books.

It's just a Katzensprung from hatred of Mexicans to hatred of Jews, really, so stand by for further developments.

Last edited by chuks; 3rd Sep 2018 at 10:31.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 13:23
  #15669 (permalink)  
 
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So many confused people. Lest anyone conflate nationality with race, understand that “Mexican” is a description of one’s nationality, not race. Prejudice against a Mexican person makes one a “nationist” not a racist. Like American, or German.

Hatred of Jewish people makes one a bigot. Or a racist I suppose, depending.

Define your terms when fomenting hatred.
waiting to be schooled on Italics. Are you Italicist?
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 16:50
  #15670 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
I have no real idea about that. Given that Ivana, his favorite daughter, converted to Orthodox Judaism in order to marry (Orthodox Jewish) Jared Kushner under Jewish religious law then the Jews are probably the only American minority ethnic group that Trump takes care to leave off his ever-expanding list of those he dislikes and freely defames.

Certainly it's true that Trump uses many Jews in his Trump Organization, such as until recently Michael Cohen. That is another argument against Trump hating Jews in general. Jewish Michael Cohen in particular, though, oh yes!

Then there is Mr. Allen Weisselberg, Trump's CFO, who I assume is also a landsman given that he is "of Jewish descent." (That is from always 100% reliable Wikipedia.) He certainly is the highest-placed key employee of the Trump Organization, someone in whom Trump has placed great trust for many years. (Yes, he is the same Allen Weisselberg who was recently granted immunity from prosecution so that he could tell the Mueller inquiry what they wanted to know about the inner workings of the Trump organization.) I do not think that an anti-Semite would have a Jew as his CFO. Again, though, might Trump now be hating Jewish Allen Weisselberg for having "flipped"? I think so, yes.

On the other hand, are there strong parallels to be drawn between the rise of Hitler and the way he maintained himself in power for 13 years, and the rise and style of misrule of Trump? Oh, you betcha!

Just look at OB's recent use of the term "in synch." That is exactly the sense of the original German word Gleichschaltung as it was misused by Hitler & Co. Not that this makes OB or Trump a Nazi, just that there's one more obvious parallel there between Nazi and Trump practices and beliefs, assuming that you know where to look for Gleichschaltung in the history books.

It's just a Katzensprung from hatred of Mexicans to hatred of Jews, really, so stand by for further developments.

You sure donít dig very deep for exculpatory evidence on whether Trump is an anti Semite, guess it doesnít fit your narrrative.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 17:37
  #15671 (permalink)  
 
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Hater in general, not an anti-Semite in particular ....

That's your Donald. At my guess he doesn't hate Jews any more than necessary. With all of his real flaws, I do not need to worry about one of Donald Trump's that's not quite obvious.

On the other hand, just abide in Christian patience for a little while to see if the Donald does manage some sort of vaguely anti-Semitic tirade when it becomes clear just how deeply into it he has been dropped by Cohen and Weisselberg. Wanna bet he's let something already slip in the non-privacy of the White House that could be construed as anti-Semitic?

Remember Catch 22, when a young officer was told that he was screwed because the C.O. hated Jews? When he said that he was not Jewish he was told that didn't matter, that the C.O. hated everyone.

One of the 99 problems I have is double-posting, yes, obviously.

Another one is managing clumsily to delete both posts when only trying to delete the one. D'oh!
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 18:25
  #15672 (permalink)  
 
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Btw, if you’re still a citizen of the US, then he’s your Donald as well.

That he may go postal on Cohen isn’t any indication to a clear thinker that he’s anti Semitic.

You’re pulling a play out of the Obama playbook. Any criticism against him meant you were racist.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 18:48
  #15673 (permalink)  
 
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My John McCain ...

Your Donald Trump, West Coast! Yours, OB's, EC's, Concours 77's, and so on, but not mine. You can keep him, right up until he starts to smell so bad that even you lot will be happy to bin him.

As to who's what, just check out Trump whining about that "Mexican" judge, Gonzalo Curiel. He was born in the USA to Mexican immigrant parents but that made him a Mexican in Trump's eyes. Raaacist!

Yes, more properly just another bigot, but for the way that Trump plays that "Mexican" card at times of his choosing. The latest one was Trump complimenting a Latino, a Border Patrol agent, on his perfect English. That's about on the level of "You know, for a fat girl you sure don't sweat much."
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 20:04
  #15674 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
Your Donald Trump, West Coast! Yours, OB's, EC's, Concours 77's, and so on, but not mine. You can keep him, right up until he starts to smell so bad that even you lot will be happy to bin him.

As to who's what, just check out Trump whining about that "Mexican" judge, Gonzalo Curiel. He was born in the USA to Mexican immigrant parents but that made him a Mexican in Trump's eyes. Raaacist!

Yes, more properly just another bigot, but for the way that Trump plays that "Mexican" card at times of his choosing. The latest one was Trump complimenting a Latino, a Border Patrol agent, on his perfect English. That's about on the level of "You know, for a fat girl you sure don't sweat much."
Liberal logic, got to love it. Trump is your President. While I didn’t like it most of the time, Obama was mine prior. The difference is being able see beyond party rhetoric.

Another difference between us, I don’t buy into your all or nothing perspective of Trump. I’m able to evaluate Trump’s words and actions, finding good and bad in both. Amazing what you can do when you remove the emotion of blind hatred.


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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 20:48
  #15675 (permalink)  
 
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Party rhetoric, indeed!

You call stuff such as "I like people who weren't captured" "party rhetoric"? Which party would that be? Man, that's just cheap abuse of a veteran.

Well, never mind. For you it must be that Trump is like that curate's rotten egg, when parts of it were excellent. I'm just not that picky an eater, I guess. All or nothing, indeed.

https://www.google.com/search?q=imag...c6dpNW0iyxf8M:

Well, Guten Appetit!
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 02:14
  #15676 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
I guess. All or nothing, indeed.
Kudos for acknowledging your failings. Hopefully there’s a 7 step program that will cure you of blind hatred. Rational thought is worth the long haul, stick with it.

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Old 4th Sep 2018, 06:49
  #15677 (permalink)  
 
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Emotion?

The justification given rather often for voting for Trump is emotion, usually dislike or hatred of Hillary Clinton, right? This having been so very, very put out, pissed off or whatever, by years of the nanny state telling you what to say, how to think, not to be some sort of unschooled bigot unaccepting of "the other," was so hard to take that finally you went into the voting booth and put Trump in office.

So now that we are stuck (for some indeterminate period of time) with a deeply unsuitable man-child as the 45th President of the United States, along with his even worse VP, what we get from you Trump partisans is a version of "Look what you made us do!"

It's not the fault of those who were foolish enough to be sold on Trump; it's the fault of that liberal elite! You can see this defective logic coming from Trump himself, when he blames his bad press on the press. Yes, Donald, it's so unfair that when you do bad things the press writes bad things about you, forcing you to lose your tiny mind on Twitter. It is our patriotic duty as Americans to line up behind you no matter what, right? Anyone calling you to account for what you've been up to spewing hateful rhetoric just has to be a hater for doing that.

I suppose this sort of thing makes sense to a Trump partisan, but it makes no sense to me. Pretzel logic that allows a veteran to line up behind a 5-times draft dodger who dumps on a war hero veteran, on the parents of a deceased veteran, on the widow of a deceased veteran ... that's powerful stuff, that kind of thinking. Dangerously wrong, but somehow justified by emotion.

Listened to in a certain way Trump's hate-filled word salads must make sense to someone who knows how to pick out the good parts. "We must protect our borders ... " ooh, good! Those Democrats, letting all those illegals in just because they all fake votes for Democrats, thank God Trump is going to put a stop to all that. "We are going to build a beautiful wall ... " all along the entire border? Hmm, better skip that part ....

I am sorry to have to tell you this, but reality is not like the way Trump watches a chop-socky video, just fast-forwarding past the stuff you do not want to pay attention to.

You need to look at all of Donald Trump, not just the stuff that makes you happy after years of having your nose rubbed in obnoxious liberal reality, being forced, for example to think of some damned dago greaser as your fellow American just because he was born here. Nah! Trump tells it like it is; if his parents came from Mexico, even legally, Gonzalo Curiel is a damned Mexican and he needs to go back to where he came from!

Me bringing up that specific example of Trump's defective thinking ... that's just me showing blind hatred, right? If I had my head on straight then I would know how to look past Trump's bigotry and focus on him grabbing that flag just the way that he likes to grab women. "It's like a magnet."

Focus, focus .... What a guy, that Donald, what a patriot, the way he grabs those flags! (See? It's working already! Thanks, West Coast!)
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 13:42
  #15678 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
The justification given rather often for voting for Trump is emotion, usually dislike or hatred of Hillary Clinton, right? This having been so very, very put out, pissed off or whatever, by years of the nanny state telling you what to say, how to think, not to be some sort of unschooled bigot unaccepting of "the other," was so hard to take that finally you went into the voting booth and put Trump in office.

So now that we are stuck (for some indeterminate period of time) with a deeply unsuitable man-child as the 45th President of the United States, along with his even worse VP, what we get from you Trump partisans is a version of "Look what you made us do!"

It's not the fault of those who were foolish enough to be sold on Trump; it's the fault of that liberal elite! You can see this defective logic coming from Trump himself, when he blames his bad press on the press. Yes, Donald, it's so unfair that when you do bad things the press writes bad things about you, forcing you to lose your tiny mind on Twitter. It is our patriotic duty as Americans to line up behind you no matter what, right? Anyone calling you to account for what you've been up to spewing hateful rhetoric just has to be a hater for doing that.

I suppose this sort of thing makes sense to a Trump partisan, but it makes no sense to me. Pretzel logic that allows a veteran to line up behind a 5-times draft dodger who dumps on a war hero veteran, on the parents of a deceased veteran, on the widow of a deceased veteran ... that's powerful stuff, that kind of thinking. Dangerously wrong, but somehow justified by emotion.

Listened to in a certain way Trump's hate-filled word salads must make sense to someone who knows how to pick out the good parts. "We must protect our borders ... " ooh, good! Those Democrats, letting all those illegals in just because they all fake votes for Democrats, thank God Trump is going to put a stop to all that. "We are going to build a beautiful wall ... " all along the entire border? Hmm, better skip that part ....

I am sorry to have to tell you this, but reality is not like the way Trump watches a chop-socky video, just fast-forwarding past the stuff you do not want to pay attention to.

You need to look at all of Donald Trump, not just the stuff that makes you happy after years of having your nose rubbed in obnoxious liberal reality, being forced, for example to think of some damned dago greaser as your fellow American just because he was born here. Nah! Trump tells it like it is; if his parents came from Mexico, even legally, Gonzalo Curiel is a damned Mexican and he needs to go back to where he came from!

Me bringing up that specific example of Trump's defective thinking ... that's just me showing blind hatred, right? If I had my head on straight then I would know how to look past Trump's bigotry and focus on him grabbing that flag just the way that he likes to grab women. "It's like a magnet."

Focus, focus .... What a guy, that Donald, what a patriot, the way he grabs those flags! (See? It's working already! Thanks, West Coast!)

I don't know Chuks, you'd have to query the voters whether it was hatred or simply a dislike of her politics and the baggage she would have brought to the White House. Curious you try to frame this as blind hatred on the conservative side as well.
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 14:54
  #15679 (permalink)  
 
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West Coast, one standard explanation, shading increasingly into an excuse, is that "I did not vote for Trump; I voted against Hillary Clinton!" That's not something I need to "frame," because it's already out there in abundance. That's emotion, not logic, at work for Trump. The rest of it comes from Trump's being a huckster, someone quite skilled at boob-squeezing whether it's chestal appendages or else voters various. Tell them what they want and at a certain point you've built your base, enough voters who want you, Donald Trump, to make normal Republicans decide to accept you as the price of beating Hillary Clinton.

Most of Trump's appeal is based on emotion, I think. Neo-Nazis who need a friend have found on in Trump; being included as one of many "fine people" in Charlottesville ... that has to make them feel good, feel happy, yes? People who should abhor Trump finding kind words for neo-Nazis just look the other way, to focus on more nuanced stuff Trump says, some sort of dog whistle tweet they can not hear all of for instance.

It's so much like what happened with Hitler that it's way past being merely interesting. There too, respectable Germans chose to focus on the good stuff: restoring national pride; giving German workers jobs and a future; sorting out those predatory bankers and money-lenders; and so on. Condoning violence, uttering thinly veiled threats, raving now and then about the Jews, doing away with established parliamentary democracy ... there was all that too, of course, but why be so negative? Give the man a chance! So Hitler took his chance .... You really think it's okay to have a President who rants and raves and averages about six to nine lies per day? He deserves his chance to go even further down this wrong road he's taking?

Right now we still have a functioning democracy with the rule of law, but Trump was just all over his own Attorney General for taking a couple of people, Republicans as it happens, to court on valid charges, instead of telling our own Department of Justice to hold off until after this mid-term election. No prizes for guessing what Trump would have said if those two had been Democrats, and that makes a nonsense of all of us being equal before the law. You okay with that, West Coast? Keep it simple for this foolish liberal; skip the nuance and just tell me if people who might have broken the law should be hauled up before a court of law ASAP, or not. In your own little burg, if the Mayor likes cruisin' and boozin', and he's a very sound conservative, should he get a pass?

Look at this very nice man, a fellow veteran, California Representative Hunter, who seems to have used his campaign chest like a piggy bank. He feels that this is all so unfair, charges being brought by a politicized justice system, so that he's quite happy to be going to trial. I guess he sees himself blowing the lid off a box of DOJ secrets, deep state Hillary voters to be shown to have been on just another witch hunt. (Want to bet he goes down, though, no matter what he alleges?) So, West Coast, should he even have been indicted?
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 15:08
  #15680 (permalink)  
 
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I guess we view things differently. I can speak authority for myself and perhaps for a small group of close friends as to who they voted for and why. You're stuck with the same limitation, difference is I recognize it. To otherwise opine means you're basing your position on large part by way of the narrative media and the political spinsters have woven. I refuse to allow someone else to do the thinking for me, you are not similarly constrained.

As to Hunter, there's never an off season to root out corruption. Much the same for the DNC's golden child in Florida. Offended by monkey comments, see soon enough if he's offended by lining his pockets with green.
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