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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 18th Jul 2018, 11:12
  #15041 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Mac, Fliegenmong and I both posted the link to this article: What If Trump Has Been a Russian Asset Since 1987? that researches the topic you raise. No one ever expected that he would ascend to the presidency, but was perhaps nevertheless under Russian sway. They, as you posit, got lucky as their pick axe hit the mother lode.

It is not as conspiratorial as some make it out to be. The Russians cast a wide net as to where they can get individuals to be sympathetic to their points. And, as any forensic accountant will say, follow the money to see how that sympathy might have been purchased.

Just reading about the young female Russian alleged (cough cough) agent who was arrested in Washington. She had been attending prayer breakfasts and NRA meetings. I wonder why?

Not a single one of Trump's cup bearers on this thread can give an answer as to why Trump will mock, denigrate, taunt, and verbally abuse any person and leader on this planet with only a rare few exceptions...Putin being one of them. Why is that? Silence from their ranks.

To be fair, another view on the Kompromat speculation: https://www.gq.com/story/what-putin-has-on-trump

Last edited by Uncle Fred; 18th Jul 2018 at 12:49. Reason: Added link with otger view of Kompromat
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 12:07
  #15042 (permalink)  
 
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Fred, there's a range of answers to your question, but none is very flattering to Trump.

One extreme is that, yes, the Russkies have some dirt on Trump, with the very dirtiest dirt being those rumored "pee tapes," evidence of Trump engaging in some perverted sex practices. We already know, from Trump himself, that he's a sexual miscreant with a defective attitude towards women. From what we know for certain it's just a little hop, not a great big jump, to imagining him caught on tape doing some sex act that most people would find disgusting and deeply wrong.

The other extreme is that Trump really idolizes Vladimir Putin, as the genuinely tough guy that Trump likes to pose as. Where Trump merely shouts for someone or other to have the crap beaten out of him, or to be thrown out of some rally (never, ever by Trump himself, always by one of his goons), people who cross Vladimir often end up dead. How cool is that?! Trump might merely be hoping for the biggest bully from High School to give him a nod and a wink as a fellow tough guy.

Look at the body language there on the stage in Helsinki. No trouble picking out the Alpha male, is there? Trump has a long way to go if he wants to go eye-to-eye with Putin.

It could be anything at all, really. All we know for now is that Putin does have Trump in his pocket.
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 12:57
  #15043 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent point Chuks about the body language and posturing that went on in Helsinki. Putin showing up late was just the start in a psychologist's or anthropologist's dream case study. If it were not so serious it would be farcical what was being played out there. Trump with his gut hanging over his belt juxtaposed with the KGB officer and judo master with the Stalin eye.

Shame that Tony Soprano is no longer around as the U.S. could have sent him and perhaps netted some real results.

Last edited by Uncle Fred; 18th Jul 2018 at 13:07.
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 13:17
  #15044 (permalink)  
 
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He has a small vocabulary and is quite inarticulate. This is OK when he is behind his keyboard or with “nice” people who will not make him look like a fool. He can communicate in short sentences, crude insults and lies without too much harm to his ego. When he is in the public arena, eye to eye with a potentially disagreeable opponent he turns onto a yes man. Maybe he is afraid they will shine a light on to his deficiencies and make him look like an imbecile?
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 13:52
  #15045 (permalink)  
 
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No, sadly, Tony Soprano is no longer with us. We do still have Dennis Rodman, though! Why don't we make Rodman our Special Envoy to the Russian Federation and send him to meet Vladimir? Putin has Trump all figured out; anyone who wants to can see Trump coming from a long way off, but Dennis Rodman?

This huge, tattooed freak ... we put him in a dress, as he sometimes likes to wear, give him Snoop Doggy Dogg as his Personal Assistant, both fully accredited, full diplomatic immunity, and then turn them loose in Red Square, doing drugs and flirting with the hot Russian ho's ... what could go wrong with that idea? More wrong than our having already sent Trump as a little between-meal snack for Vladimir, that is.

Yes, let's throw Vlad a change-up pitch, because I don't think he knows much about our national sport, baseball. A change-up, a brush-back, a slider, and a few spit-balls too ....
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 15:07
  #15046 (permalink)  
 
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Rosenstein.

The timing of the indictments re the Russian brass is instructive. Days before meeting Putin, and certainly a difficult hurdle to jump and carry off a non controversial meet.

Two things Trump should have done, and that he has not is mystifying. Demanded Rosenstein recuse from Mueller’s probe. Confiscate the remaining memos the FBI will not release to Congress.

Rosenstein signed the affidavit releasing the FISA warrant via the judge. In other words, he is partially responsible for giving the FBI permission to conduct legal espionage on Trump.

There is is no higher authority as to top secret than the Executive. All Trump needs to do is request the documents. They would be delivered by the director (Wray) or he would face being fired, and the secret service could snatch the documents anyway.

It is likely that with Rosenstein gone, and a new AG appointed by Trump heading DOJ, with the complete set of docs embarrassing all the top FBI people, Mueller would probably call it a day.

Maybe Trump does work for Putin. Or he is a moron.
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 15:16
  #15047 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Concours77 View Post
There is is no higher authority as to top secret than the Executive. All Trump needs to do is request the documents. They would be delivered by the director (Wray) or he would face being fired, and the secret service could snatch the documents anyway.


Sorry, but can I just confirm what you seem to be saying?

You appear to be saying that the President is allowed to inte5rfere with an on-going criminal investigation, to tamper with and remove evidence, and that the Secret Service will aid and abet him in doing this - is your system really that deeply and institutionally corrupt?
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 15:21
  #15048 (permalink)  
 
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Meanwhile in other news, I gather the US taxpayer paid ~£53,000 to Turnberry hotel for Trump's stay - a hotel which Trump owns, so he is putting US Taxpayers money directly into his own pocket.

Boy, oh boy - he's laughing at you while he's screwing you...

PDR
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 15:28
  #15049 (permalink)  
 
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PDR1

The answer is yes. The President has the power to take the documents. Yes, the President can fire anyone he’d like, in the Executive Branch.

We are not in law here, we are in the Constitution, which supersedes Law. Where there is Constitutional provision, no act can overrule. Since the Constitution spells out the process, no other law can intervene.

The Constitution trumps all. My argument at the Supreme Court, if they heard the complaint, would be all men are entitled to confront their accuser. This includes all evidence he or she has.

There is no way to remove a President from office legally. The only way to remove an Executive is indictment by Congress (this is called “impeachment”) followed by conviction in the Senate (called “Removal”).

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Old 18th Jul 2018, 15:58
  #15050 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Uncle Fred View Post
Excellent point Chuks about the body language and posturing that went on in Helsinki. Putin showing up late was just the start in a psychologist's or anthropologist's dream case study. If it were not so serious it would be farcical what was being played out there. Trump with his gut hanging over his belt juxtaposed with the KGB officer and judo master with the Stalin eye.

Shame that Tony Soprano is no longer around as the U.S. could have sent him and perhaps netted some real results.
If only we had an investigation to determine if Trump is under Putin’s control. If it’s that obvious to lefty pruners, you’d think Mueller would have found something. Guess Mueller hasn’t received all the hit tips and expert free legal advice that prune has to offer.

Whos up for some pro bono work for Mueller!
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 16:23
  #15051 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Concours77 View Post
The Constitution trumps all. My argument at the Supreme Court, if they heard the complaint, would be all men are entitled to confront their accuser. This includes all evidence he or she has.


That argument would allow him to see, and probably receive copies, of the documents - not to remove them from the investigation.

I am not sure your understanding of the president's ability to interfere with ongoing criminal investigations is correct, but if it is you certainly would have a corrupt system. My reason for doubting your interpretation is the frequent references in US fiction (books, films, TV etc) to presidents that got into deep do-do (usually resigning) because they were found to had interfered or tried to interfere in criminal investigations. Now these are (of course) just fiction, but if the core principle is not true I don't understand why it comes up so often. There are various sources which suggest that interfering with a criminal investigation into the his own activities would very probably be an Obstruction of Justice which was impeachable (it was the first article in Nixon's impeachment, after all). No, it's not cut and dried, but that's a sword with two edges. You'll find a pretty objective discussion of it here if you're interested.

So that would allow a bill of impeachment to be raised. The question is whether the house would pass it and the Senate ratify it. It would be nice to think both places would judge the bill on its merits, but in reality it would probably come down to whether he has more friends than enemies in both houses. I'm sure we each have our own views on which way that dog will hunt.

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Old 18th Jul 2018, 16:29
  #15052 (permalink)  
 
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Good point, WC!

This investigation has been going on for so very long, plus it has cost almost as much as Trump has spent on rounds of golf ... and what is there to show so far? Nothing, right, WC?

Okay, a couple of Trump's people have been indicted, tried, and found guilty, and a few more merely have been indicted, one (Manafort) even now sitting in the hoosegow for trying to fix a few witnesses prior to his trial, but other than all that, nope, nothing.

WC, if you were to be charged with a felony, then forced to spend a fortune on legal fees, followed by being convicted, heavily fined, and sent to prison, would all of that seem to you to be nothing? What are you holding out for here, crucifixion?
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 16:52
  #15053 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, Chuks, you are advocating what the Left always does: "We won't actually charge and convict you, because we don't have the evidence. But we'll bleed you dry trying to defend yourself". Especially if the lefty under discussion is a government guy, who sends his legal bills to the taxpayer.

That's how Hollywood keeps their bunch in line, as do unions, and other arms of the Demo party.
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 17:17
  #15054 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
**sigh** A phony distinction.

However, we are a Constitutional Representative Democratic Republic -

Who else in the US - except the demos (the people) - chooses who governs?
Whew, you made me go to the google to find that tortured language. Anyway, I'm not a fan of debasing our govt from the discredited WaPo source from 3 years ago. I prefer to go to the original source again. Mr Franklin, when asked 'Dr, what type of government have you given us?' 'A republic' he replied, 'if you can keep it'.

Happy to say, the republic still stands. For those still wanting some reinforcement, hark back to your youth, maybe in primary school where on occasion, we would all stand, face the flag and; 'I pledge allegiance....'(you know the rest).

Since it is the electors, from the states which elect who governs the presidency, it is another point of fact that the US is not a Democracy, as the 'demos' are the tertiary source. Our nation is founded on laws, which are backed by a judicial system that has almost no responsibility to the people. Which is why we had an informal recognition of slavery in our founding document, and it took a full internal war to change. Had we actually BEEN a democracy, where each person votes, we might still have slaves today. Hmmmm.
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 20:13
  #15055 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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It's amusing to see that anybody who has the audacity to post something anti-Trump is described as a hater.

How can anyone hate Trump? He's too much like everyones crazy uncle Ernie. He's the one who's always bitching about some group or other. (Today it's migrants. Yesterday it was blacks and Pakis. Before that it was Irish or Gypos.)

The sad thing is, he's likely in the early stages of dementia and he tends to get excited. He says things and two minutes later he's forgotten what he said. He's convinced that he's right and all those (**insert minority group of choice**) loving middle class types who've never done a days work in their lives just can't see what's going on. They are ruining the country.

However, he's a close relative and although we might not like him we can't totally ignore him. Besides some of his older relatives were really good friends to us and we love them.

But keep in mind, both crazy uncle Ernie and Trump are likely to get overexcited one day and keel over. Let's hope they do that before they do any serious damage.
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 20:43
  #15056 (permalink)  
 
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We must remember that Trump has a disadvantage compared to most of his recent predecessors.

He's right-handed.
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 22:39
  #15057 (permalink)  
 
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Putin is the most experienced leader on the World stage, by a long shot. Others come and go, Putin stays, surrounded by a team of equal experience, some with thirty odd years at the top such as Lavrov and a security apparatus without parallel.

These people don't mess around, and they take no prisoners, every move is calculated and every possible outcome analysed, emotion (such a large part of US politics) doesn't come into it. It is a deadly serious game with high stakes and they treat it as such, it is my belief is they put their country first and are ruthless in achieving this. It is probably obvious to state that it was likely Trumps pre-presidential visits during the last decade or so were meticulously recorded by the FSB in conjunction with the SVR - they would be foolish not to - likely bugging apparatus was in place in a custom suite that might even have been engineered just for that purpose - and Trump was directed to it - although it would have seemed like choice, from his first Visa application he would have been tagged as being of interest and targeted for "Kompromat".

Kompromat... just look up Yury Skuratov (a classic case) or that British Diplomat in Yekaterinburg a few years back.

But Trump is ruthless also, the guy isn't stupid (and those who think he is should seriously reconsider their view) and it doesn't take a genius for him to make the assumption he was likely being bugged, so in that sense can't see him taking any risks, he was raised during the cold war and must have harboured suspicions at the very least.

I like Trump and Putin.... so no bias either way here
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 23:16
  #15058 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
That argument would allow him to see, and probably receive copies, of the documents - not to remove them from the investigation.

I am not sure your understanding of the president's ability to interfere with ongoing criminal investigations is correct, but if it is you certainly would have a corrupt system. My reason for doubting your interpretation is the frequent references in US fiction (books, films, TV etc) to presidents that got into deep do-do (usually resigning) because they were found to had interfered or tried to interfere in criminal investigations. Now these are (of course) just fiction, but if the core principle is not true I don't understand why it comes up so often. There are various sources which suggest that interfering with a criminal investigation into the his own activities would very probably be an Obstruction of Justice which was impeachable (it was the first article in Nixon's impeachment, after all). No, it's not cut and dried, but that's a sword with two edges. You'll find a pretty objective discussion of it here if you're interested.

So that would allow a bill of impeachment to be raised. The question is whether the house would pass it and the Senate ratify it. It would be nice to think both places would judge the bill on its merits, but in reality it would probably come down to whether he has more friends than enemies in both houses. I'm sure we each have our own views on which way that dog will hunt. PDR
howdy. The documents in question have been subpoenaed by the House of Representatives, and the custodians, the FBI, are slow rolling, though they have not refused. These documents are the property of the Executive Branch. Trump, literally, owns them. As property of the Executive Branch, the President has control over them, he does not have to produce them, and he has the right to deny subpoena, though the Judicial Branch, the Supreme Court, may rule otherwise. It is called “Executive privilege”, something like “Miranda for Presidents.”

The documents would have to pass through the Oval anyway, for approval and or de-classification, if required. The Founders made the President extremely powerful, and Impeachment has only happened twice, once with Andrew Johnson, and once with Bill Clinton. Johnson’s case went to the Senate, where removal was narrowly avoided. Most people do not understand the level of authority the President has, and it makes me smile when Democrats get sideways because they can do nothing. If they gain control of the House next election, (three months time) they will try to pass articles of Impeachment. They won’t get what they want, and the most powerful of these, Schumer, Pelosi, Willie Brown, etc., are trying to dampen the hysteria. Impeachment won’t work, and it is toxic for both sides. The people deserve a working Congress, not imbeciles and petulant hysterics.

cheers, and IMO only.

con

By the way, “Allow him to see and possibly receive copies.....” is precious, no one can control the President using the Constitution as a weapon. “Marbury versus Madison” is a case that frames the awesome power of the Executive. I think that’s the one....He is the Commander in Chief of all the armed forces, and controls all Federal law enforcement. I am not impressed with Trump, he seems not to understand the power his office holds. (Maybe that is a good thing....)

Also, the ultimate outcome of the importance of these docs will likely embarrass the FBI, that is why they are reluctant. The Director, Wray, hates Trump, and if the documents are exculpatory, he holds them. If they condemn the President, they would have been produced ages ago. Easy peasy.

Last edited by Concours77; 18th Jul 2018 at 23:30.
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Old 19th Jul 2018, 05:03
  #15059 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post
Putin is the most experienced leader on the World stage, by a long shot. Others come and go, Putin stays,
That kinda thing happens when you’re a dictator.
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Old 19th Jul 2018, 05:14
  #15060 (permalink)  
 
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Spycraft ....

I once visited Leningrad, in the early Eighties. There used to be this package deal that let you travel Helsinki-Leningrad-Helsinki on the so-called Vodka Train for about $100 US all-in, including hotel accommodation.

Leningrad was amazingly cheap, so that I decided to go to the ballet one night, for about $3. It was just the lesser troupe, not the Kirov or whatever that was, but for $3? When I bought the ticket at the hotel the girl asked how many, when I said "Just the one." To be polite I asked her if she wanted to come too, when she said no, but that her friend might like to go, tee-hee. (There was this other girl sat there with her, saying nothing, so that I took this for a little joke, harmless flirtation, especially since I only paid for one ticket, not two.)

They had this system where you got not a ticket but a chit, printed on what looked for all the world like German "John Wayne." (That is a sort of toilet paper so called because it is rough and tough and it doesn't take sh*t off anyone.) You had to swap the chit for the ticket at the theater. I joined the crowd at the theater to swap my chit for a ticket, when up popped the girl from the hotel!

We sat through the performance, including an intermission when she refused a drink, not even a soft drink, saying little. She was a very sober companion. She let drop that she had a graduate degree in engineering, and she was wearing industrial-strength cheap perfume. Whatever. Sorry, fans, but I was not 007, and this was not "From Russia with Love." At the end, just being polite again, I asked her if she'd like to go somewhere to have perhaps a cup of coffee and a piece of cake. "No, I have to go home now and make dinner for my husband and the children." At eleven o'clock at night? That's a late dinner, even by Spanish standards!

From that, I took it that I might have been there with my "minder." If I rated whatever that was, I think it's safe to assume that Donald Trump, private citizen and very rich businessman with a known weakness for the ladies, a perfect target for Kompromat, rated much, much more during his first visit to Russia.

This denial by Putin of any Russian capability of keeping track of 500 businessmen including Trump was nonsense. When I was there I felt beady eyes on me at all times, even though I was an object of no particular interest. I think they like to "just make sure," and they have plenty of people working for a vast system of surveillance and control who do just that. If Trump got up to any shenanigans, it's probably down on video.

Tellingly, Trump denied that he'd spent the night in Moscow, when he clearly had done so. What's the big deal with a night in a hotel in Moscow that he needed to lie about that? It's the lie that makes us think something really did go on. Either way, though, I think we can be sure that the Russians were watching him.

One time I was on R&R in Hong Kong when the doors to the elevator opened in my hotel and there was a guy I had met in Basic Training at Fort Gordon, Georgia. (He was a stand-out in our crowd there as a college grad from a good family, someone who'd been "raised proper.")

Here he was again, but with a cheap Chinese tart on his arm, all of his upper middle-class standards thrown to the four winds. What were the odds, really, of someone who knew him catching him misbehaving like that? Awkward, there's one more guy who hopes he never hears from me again, ever!

So what were the odds of Trump, dummy that he is, thinking, "Hey, I'm thousands of miles away, just let Schiller get to sleep, and then we check with Reception about sending up a couple of those hot girls they mentioned earlier. Who's to know? And there's that big mirror right across from the bed so that I can watch the show .... Perfect!"
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