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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel v2.0

Old 5th Feb 2020, 17:11
  #20281 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Well except for the "down the drain " bit, Per, I agree with you. It has always been this way, though.

It's like Pelosi's silly antics: Trumphaters loved it, Trumplovers hated it. We are in the most partisan time in American politics of my lifetime.
All true, and even the press is tiring of making all their money off it (well at least the talking heads)

But we always seem to have a way out of this boredom. We throw out the old and bring in fresh money sources. But the key is who to back that talks not so much of what the party wants, but first and foremost of bi-partnership. I suspect that whatever party can put up along those lines has a chance.

I suspect that means Trump will not be in, but his party would have to come up with somebody else. On the other hand the Democrats are still sorting out a flag holder for their opposite interests and the path they are currently on has no chance against Trump.

So I do expect some surprises to still come

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Old 5th Feb 2020, 17:12
  #20282 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Well except for the "down the drain " bit, Per, I agree with you. It has always been this way, though.

It's like Pelosi's silly antics: Trumphaters loved it, Trumplovers hated it. We are in the most partisan time in American politics of my lifetime.
I think it was a dumb move by Pelosi. Trump started the night when he refused to shake her hand (for whatever reason) looking very ungallant - Trump finished the night with Pelosi looking every bit as childish and petty as him.

If Pelosi thinks she can beat Trump by going low....
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 18:59
  #20283 (permalink)  
 
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I noticed that the Republican ire has turned its attention to attacking Mitt Romney Esq. who have voted to convict on the first impeachment count.

I read the interview with him and he voted his conscious. Interesting how a percentage of the population is all for representative democracy until the representative does what he or she was authorized to do.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 19:52
  #20284 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Uncle Fred View Post
I noticed that the Republican ire has turned its attention to attacking Mitt Romney Esq. who have voted to convict on the first impeachment count.

I read the interview with him and he voted his conscious. Interesting how a percentage of the population is all for representative democracy until the representative does what he or she was authorized to do.
This is Romney’s payback, much animus between the two.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 20:15
  #20285 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
At the conclusion of the President's Speech....Nancy Pelosi gathered up all the pages of the speech she was given by the President per Custom.....then ripped them into pieces.

That just shows what utter arrogance and complete lack of decorum she has as Speaker of the House.

Any wonder why so many of us hold the Democrats in such utter disdain?

She can hate the President all she wants....but she is the Speaker of the House....and should show respect for the Office of the President which Donald Trump holds.
In 1801, Thomas Jefferson ended the tradition of appearing before Congress in person to give "The State of The Union Address." It was 111 years before it returned. Jefferson and those that followed in those years sent a written message to Congress. Jefferson's reasoning for discontinuing the in person speech was that it resembled too much like the British Sovereign's "Speech From The Throne." Jefferson thought both Washington and Adams demonstrated monarchist tendencies and were pulling their Party (Federalists) and the nation back into a regal state. Woodrow Wilson in 1913 was the POTUS that brought back "the in person address." In fact the reality of the more recent addresses has been the diminishing of Congress by the growth, pageantry and entertainment factors which get larger every year.

First it was just Congressional members of the House and Senate in attendance. Then, seating was added for Cabinet members, the Supreme Court, the military joint chiefs and foreign ambassadors. The gallery was added to seat the president’s picks of citizen heroes seated alongside the first lady. House and Senate members, suffered the increasingly diminished status as backdrop bystanders. For the most part but not always Congressional members are attentive, respectful, immobile and mute, until cued to respond at the “pause-for-applause lines” developed by which ever POTUS is speaking.

The disparaging conduct that goes on between House Speaker Pelosi and President Trump dates back to the year when Trump initially took full credit for shutting down the Federal government and Pelosi responded by withdrawing the invitation to have him give the State of The Union Address in person. Trump then attempted to pawn the shutdown off on Congressional Democrats. The shutdown ended, Pelosi renewed the invitation and Trump gave the in person address, but he has never forgotten or forgiven Pelosi and never will. The lesson is that the POTUS is only invited by the Speaker of The House to give the address no matter who that Speaker may be, and that's all there is to that.

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Old 5th Feb 2020, 20:47
  #20286 (permalink)  
 
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All the lofty talk about principle, ethics, duty, honor, and the law....and we see a Party Line Vote (less one lone Senator) on Article One.

The Speaker of the House who kicked this whole debacle off stated Impeachment should be based on overwhelming and compelling evidence, and should enjoy strong. bi-partisan support.

That never existed, and never developed during the process.

That one fact alone indicts the very foundation and motivation of those that pursued this the third ever Impeachment of a President of the United States.

This was a purely partisan effort the Founding Fathers feared....no doubt whatsoever.

The Democrats lost the 2016 Election and still refuse to accept that fact....and by Chuck Schumer's statement today still refuse to do so.

Adam Schiff, the lead of the House of Representatives while on the floor of the Senate, stated that the Democrat view is that the 2020 Election shall not be acceptable should Donald J. Trump win re-election.

The Will of the People seems lost on the Democrats.

Elections have repercussions.....but never in the minds of reasonable people is what we see the Democrats doing has ever been thought right, proper, or acceptable.

It is time for the Democrats to put on their Big Boy and Big Gurl Breeches and deal with the reality of their situation extant.....and accept reality.

The President was acqutted.

Time to attend to the People's business until the Election in 2020.

If they can make their case to the People they will win.....if they cannot they shall lose yet again.

No matter which way it turns out....they must finally accept the People's decision at the Polls.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 20:51
  #20287 (permalink)  
 
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It's always the same. Democrats have habitually denigrated Romney as some sort of religious zealot. Have we forgotten the 2012 campaigns already?

Now all of a sudden they have discovered his "faith based conscience" and he is their darling.

Fortunately it makes no difference. And Romney will be a 1-term senator, unless he is recalled prior to 2024.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 21:02
  #20288 (permalink)  
 
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Some observations from Robert Reich (yeah, I know - a pansy, lily-livered, communist. socialist wimp etc. etc.)
Good luck America - you're sure as hell going to need it.

1. JOBS: Average monthly job creation dropped from 223,000 in 2018 to 176,000 in 2019. The employment rate for working-age adults has increased less than during the Obama recovery, and is still significantly below that of other developed countries. The pace of job creation is also markedly slower than it was under Obama.

2. WAGES: Wage growth has slowed, except in states with minimum-wage increases. The typical American household remains poorer today than it was before the financial crisis began in 2007. The median wage of a full-time male worker (and those with full-time jobs are the lucky ones) is still more than 3% below what it was 40 years ago.

3. TAXES: The Trump-Republican tax cut has been a huge failure. We were promised an increase in business investment, but business investment has contracted for the third straight quarter—the first time this has happened since the Great Recession in 2009. Instead, the tax cut triggered an all-time record binge of share buybacks – some $800 billion in 2018.

If fully implemented, the 2017 tax cut will result in tax increases for most households in the bottom 80 percent.

And it has resulted in record peacetime deficits (almost $1 trillion in fiscal 2019) in a country supposedly near full employment. Even with weak investment, the US had to borrow massively abroad: the most recent data show foreign borrowing at nearly $500 billion a year, with an increase of more than 10% in America’s net indebtedness position in one year alone.

Nothing has trickled down to average workers. To the contrary, If fully implemented the 2017 tax cut will result in tax increases for most households in the bottom 80 percent.

4. TRADE: The 2018 goods deficit was the largest on record. Even the deficit in trade with China was up almost a quarter from 2016.

5 GROWTH: Last quarter’s growth was just 2.1%, far less than the 4%, 5%, or even 6% Trump promised to deliver, and even less than the 2.4% average of Obama’s second term. That is a remarkably poor performance considering the stimulus provided by the $1 trillion deficit and ultra-low interest rates.

6. WORKERS' RIGHTS: Trump administration has systematically weakened workers’ rights. More than eight million workers will be left behind by the Trump overtime rule. Workers would receive $1.4 billion less than under the 2016 rule. New Trump administration joint-employer rule has $1 billion price tag for workers.

7. HEALTH: Millions of Americans have lost their health coverage, and the uninsured rate has risen, in just two years, from 10.9% to 13.7%. US life expectancy, already relatively low, fell in each of the first two years of Trump’s presidency, and in 2017, midlife mortality reached its highest rate since World War II.

8. CLIMATE: losses related to climate change have already reached new highs in the US, which has suffered more property damage than any other country – reaching some 1.5% of GDP in 2017.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 21:14
  #20289 (permalink)  
 
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Schiff is a complete
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
The President was acqutted. .
It is well if the court acquit thee;
t were best hadst thou never been tried.
I appreciate that a bon mot from The Laws of the Navy might not register with Mr Trump, and perhaps not with an Army vet. (for different reasons)

OK, this clown show is over.
When's the next show?
Originally Posted by tartare
TAXES: The Trump-Republican tax cut has been a huge failure.
Yeah, and so were the W era tax cuts.
Here's a problem: the Dems are trying to increase entitlements. We have a bad enough balance of payments problem as it is.
As to the rate of income growth when Obama was around: the economy had just tanked, it had nowhere to go but up.
Reich does some interesting cherry picking there. Suggest that you use a bit of critical thinking before buying his box of soap.

HEALTH: Millions of Americans have lost their health coverage,
It's been a running sore since the late 90's.
It hasn't gotten better.
Obama care didn't make it better, but it did drive some doctors out of their practices.

People defecating on Mr Romney: he sounds to me lke a voice in the wilderness.
You may want to check the OT to understand what I am referring to.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 21:28
  #20290 (permalink)  
 
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Robert Reich has been on the wrong side of most socioeconomic issues for decades.

If you consider him a voice of authority just because he is erudite and can express himself well, then fine.
But then you need to accept Victor Davis Hanson, who is also a respected professor, author of some well known history books, as also a voice of authority. He and Reich are poles apart.

Being told by university professors what data mean and how we should be thinking is one of the major reasons for the rise of Trump.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 21:43
  #20291 (permalink)  
 
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OB, the polls would seem to agree with you.
Trump's approval rating, which has generally languished in the mid- to low-40s, hit a new high of 49% in the latest Gallup polling, which was conducted as the Senate trial was drawing to a close. The poll found that 51% of the public views the Republican Party favorably, the first time the GOP's number has exceeded 50% since 2005.
It's from the bottom of the news artcle I just read on the result of the vote in the Senate.

This is the kind of result Pelosi was trying to avoid.
But she dealt herself a losing hand.

Obstruction of Congress
What a bogus charge.
Read between the lines: president disagreed and shared mutual antipathy with (some members of) Congress (including House leadership)
Uh, that's where the separation of powers fits in, per the Constitution.
Congress can't get out of its own way. Is Nancy going to charge Congress next, with obstructing itself?

Abuse of Power.
Which would be like when FDR - patron saint of the Democratic party - tried to stack the Supreme Court ...
If she wanted to win this, she needed to reach across the aisle and get bipartisan support for her effort.
She failed.
Not great at politics, as it works out.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 22:31
  #20292 (permalink)  
 
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Et tu Mitte!



​​​​​​It would be interesting to see Schiff run for the nomination and debate Trump.

While "Lock her up!" was Trump's favorite mantra, "Lock him up!" might work as well for the eventual Democrat nominee
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 22:50
  #20293 (permalink)  
 
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OBG,

Just like that famous meme of Forrest Gump sitting on a park bench I referenced a week or so ago about the Democrats and John Bolton....the same holds for Romney today.

".....And just like that the Democrats decided they love Romney!",


Lone,

Those Laws also speak of the danger of a half loaded gun too.

That is where the Democrats went wrong....yet again.

Last edited by SASless; 5th Feb 2020 at 23:05.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 23:13
  #20294 (permalink)  
 
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The GOP Party, e.g., The Party of Lincoln, ended its existence in the past few weeks. It has been replaced by the POT, e.g., the Party of Trump. So, where do you Trump lovers go if Trump either loses the 2020 election or gains the next four years? Will Trump Jr. be the next in line to preserve the Trump monarchy? Something to ponder...
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 23:36
  #20295 (permalink)  
 
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America is moving further away from being a democracy.
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Old 6th Feb 2020, 01:21
  #20296 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cool Guys View Post
America is moving further away from being a democracy.
Willful ignorance is not a good look.
1. Trump has to stand for re election. He's not guaranteed a win. He can still cock it up, or, one of his challengers can run a brilliant campaign and win. Democracy is alive and well.

2. The Constitutional process was followed, just as it was with Clinton, just as it was with Andrew Johnson. Result was the same: not enough votes to remove, so back to the usual tensions between the branches of government, per the design of the Constitution. In civics class, had you remained awake, you'd have heard the term "balance of powers."

Your statement is vague, vacuous, and simply illustrates willful ignorance.

Benjamin Franklin was asked, as he came out of the Constitutional Convention:
“Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”
He replied:
“A Republic, if you can keep it.”

So far, so good.

My concern?
Citizens United and Kelo(2005). I disagree that a corporation is a person, and I disagree that the government has the right to confiscate your property because it wants to increase the tax base for its urban gentrification projects.
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Old 6th Feb 2020, 01:50
  #20297 (permalink)  
 
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“Robert Reich has been on the wrong side of most socioeconomic issues for decades.”

Followed by

“But then you need to accept Victor Davis Hanson”

My economist is more reliable than your economist.

Try this, take a look at what is actually happening on the street.

Real wages (or purchasing power) have barely increased in the past 50 years, several percent at most. Real wages in 1973 were higher than 2019.

You can argue about who added the most to the national debt and you can pretend that the gang you identify with, republicans or democrats, has done the best to “revive” the economy but most of this noise is meaningless when you understand that the average worker is WORSE OFF than they were in 1974!

This is a massive failure of public policy and a massive failure of the corrupt US Government, both parties, to protect the average American from the ravages of neo liberal capitalism.

Take a look at Alan Greenspan’s proudest moment from over 20 years ago when he gleefully confirmed that “heightened job insecurity” was the most significant reason that wages were being “restrained” despite a reasonably healthy labor market.




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Old 6th Feb 2020, 02:56
  #20298 (permalink)  
 
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Lonewolf:
The Constitutional process was followed, just as it was with Clinton, just as it was with Andrew Johnson.
A simplistic superficial observation. The magnitude of the lies, bullying, stonewalling, intimidation and obstruction in the latest impeachment proceedings was unprecedented compared with Clinton and Johnson. With this level of corruption it was impossible to follow constitutional process as intended by the founders of the constitution.
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Old 6th Feb 2020, 04:03
  #20299 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cool Guys View Post
Lonewolf:


A simplistic superficial observation. The magnitude of the lies, bullying, stonewalling, intimidation and obstruction in the latest impeachment proceedings was unprecedented compared with Clinton and Johnson. With this level of corruption it was impossible to follow constitutional process as intended by the founders of the constitution.
Superficial? It’s the truth. This wasn’t a trial in the legal sense, it was a politically driven coup effort. Had it been a Democrat, the vote would have pretty much followed party lines as well.
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Old 6th Feb 2020, 13:12
  #20300 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cool Guys View Post
Lonewolf:A simplistic superficial observation.
Not in the least. If you actually read up on American political history, going back to when Adams and Jefferson were giving each other the mickey, when duels happened, when Andrew Jackson kicked someone's butt, you will find that the magnitude of bullying, acrimony, slander, stonewalling, intimidation and obstruction (see the process called Filibuster) has a long history and varies by personality. ANdrew Johnson, as an example, tried to play the bully, and was not particularly good at it. Lyndon Johnson, as a Senator, was a very effective bully.
As a President, not as successful.
Dick Cheney, as VP, was pretty adept at back room arm twisting ... it's something he learned early in his political career from his more senior Congressmen ...

Vitriol has played a part in the "discourse" for a very long time.But it comes and goes.
It seems to me to have become more acrimnoious since about 2000 and the hanging chads, and as amplified by the 24/7 on nature of viral electronic communications.
in the latest impeachment proceedings was unprecedented compared with Clinton and Johnson.
I think you need to read up on the style of rhetoric during the era of the Radical Republicans/Thaddeus Stephens, and his contemporaries.
See also the pre Civil war speeches and personal attacks from about 1820 - 1860.
As to the rhetoric during the Clinton impeachment, in my memory it was bitter, but I think in this case it's been nastier overall.

If you go to primary sources this takes us back to even Washington's presidency and the Federalist/Republicans(Adams vs Jefferson) spiteful discourse. (The biography Ron Chernow did on Alexander Hamilton in 2004 does a good job of showing this) The calumny ran rampant, but about half of the political rhetoric was issued under pseudonyms.
Modern politicians often use proxies on the internet to do something similar, and of course plenty of them simply speak out and get recorded .. or use Twitter to get their line across.
Not much has changed but the speed of transmission.
With this level of corruption it was impossible to follow constitutional process as intended by the founders of the constitution.
No, it isn't, the process was followed. Whether or not you like the result is irrelevant.
Impeachment is a political act.

As to corruption: there's a lot of that going on, and it didn't start in 2016. Corruption as the hand wave that you offer has bloody fcuk all to do with Democracy being alive and well, or not.
The American voters, that is, the roughtly 60-65% percent who bother to show up, voted in all of these assclowns in both parties.
In a Democracy, you tend to get the government you deserve - because you vote it in.
Democracy is indeed alive and well.

My concerns noted in a previous post are informed by watching 20-30 years of attempts at campaign finance reform, efforts that seem to have failed.
The Citizens United ruling was a nail in that coffin.
If that is what you are referring to as corruption, we probably agree.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 6th Feb 2020 at 13:30.
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