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Old 13th Mar 2015, 14:23
  #141 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,640

Mr Notts.

Rather nasty comment..

Who ever said they were 'angels'?

I wonder, have you ever been to a football match ?
Your probably right, and certainly I have never been to a football match, but, like most people will, have experienced a rowdy, threatening behavior of fans outside the ground at railway stations, town centres etc - and not only in UK, in other European countries as well.

My frustration is that the merest suggestion that there might have been even the smallest amount of pushing and shoving, that might have just, slightly, contributed to the terrible ending is slapped down in the media - as though the fans were angels, which as I believe, reading your posting you agree, they were probably not.

Last edited by ATNotts; 13th Mar 2015 at 14:24. Reason: Correct punctuation to make sense
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Old 13th Mar 2015, 15:22
  #142 (permalink)  
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I'm sure ATNotts isn't on a wind up and probably feels the current coverage could do with a bit more balance. Balance the families could have done with in 1989 perhaps?

As gsky said, no ones claiming the fans that day were angels however just today David Duckenfield had admitted that he received "no information that Liverpool fans were causing trouble..." This was a "normal" crowd no better or worse than any others.

Justice? why wouldn't you fight for it? Rolling over accepting your lot, well that's covered in this thread too.

Justice for the families is perhaps an acknowledgement that what happened on that day wasn't unavoidable? It's not really for me to say.

As maliyahsdad2 said "Perhaps if the police had told the truth from the outset we wouldn't have had the need of multiple enquiries"

I forgot to say in reply to Henry, a lot of the point is that it was always likely to be Hillsborough where it happened, it was poorly maintained and not up to the job. It's all been documented elsewhere.
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Old 13th Mar 2015, 18:26
  #143 (permalink)  
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South Yorks Police and cover-ups

Police Cover-up of Child Sex Abuse in Sheffield 'Bigger Than Rotherham' - Breitbart
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 05:05
  #144 (permalink)  
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Link didn't work Woody try this one.

Recap: David Duckenfield evidence to Hillsborough Inquests - Monday March 16 2015 - Liverpool Echo
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 09:12
  #145 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by gsky View Post
Mr Notts.

Rather nasty comment..

Who ever said they were 'angels'?

I wonder, have you ever been to a football match ?
I went to a football match on Sunday, I went with my 28 year old son to watch Man Utd v Tottenham and it was a top day out. However I can certainly testify to the fact that there is a still an awful lot of alcohol drunk outside and inside the stadium on match day.

We parked about a mile from the stadium and walked in and passed countless bars offering cans of beer/cider etc, countless people sitting around swilling beer and even folk drinking from plastic bottles inside the stadium.

If there was any sort of incident on Sunday there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the amount of alcohol consumed by many would have definitely had an impact on the outcome.

If we consider no more than 2 beers to be enough to put us over the drink drive limit then what on earth do people think that a complete skinful is going to to your average football fan?

Anyone who thinks the Liverpool fans should not share some of the blame for the deaths of the 96 is quite frankly living in cloud cuckoo land.
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 09:54
  #146 (permalink)  
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"Anyone who thinks the Liverpool fans should not share some of the blame for the deaths of the 96 is quite frankly living in cloud cuckoo land."

OK. Firstly I was objecting to the 'angels' comment.
We all know football fans are no 'angels' and the original posting was unnecessary.
I also go to football matches , regularly and I occasionally see some unsavoury people acting stupid.
They are a small minority at most clubs however the more successful the club, the larger the number of idiots that follow them.
Drinking too much is a culture in this country and many football fans do it.
It is not abnormal or surprising. it may be stupid!

I don't think I live in 'cloud cuckoo land'. but what I do think, strongly is the police have a duty to protect the public.
Football fans are the public.
They failed abysmally in that duty and then tried to cover it up , year after year.
Any public event where large crowds are expected has to be policed and the authorities have a duty to ensure the safety of them all.

At Hillsborough, despite prior warnings, and requests, the FA failed in their duty.
The police failed in their duty and then blamed the 'drunken fans'!

At a recent Everton-Liverpool game the Premier League ordered the game to be a late kick-off. ( allowing more drinking time for the idiots!) Why ? To ensure maximum TV coverage (i.e. money)
The clubs objected , the police objected, correctly, but the Premier League powers
stuck to their original time. FOR MONEY!

They ( the football authorities) never learn! and THEY DONT CARE!
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 10:01
  #147 (permalink)  
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I was at the game on Sunday too - a couple of pints beforehand with my son and some friends. All very convivial, and not an ounce of unpleasantness to be seen at the pub, the stadium or points in between. The same has been true for many years of attending. I wouldn't deny that flare ups do occur, but in general they seem to be away from the grounds nowadays as the stadiums are pretty well policed.

I don't think any right-minded person would deny that it is likely that some Liverpool fans may have been drunk, but surely a proper police control plan would have catered for that? If they worked on the assumption that they would be marshalling 40,000 sober pensioners it's not surprising it all went wrong!

IMHO the crux of the matter is the disputed handover between Dukenfield and his predecessor (one says it happened, one says it didn't). If it did happen it was either ineffective, or Dukenfield wasn't up to the job of carrying it through. If it didn't then the predecessor is culpable for it not happening (allegedly through a fit of pique at being moved) and so is Dukenfield for not raising hell about it beforehand. It's not as if he was a junior PC - a Chief Superintendent ought to be able to grasp the bigger picture.
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 10:28
  #148 (permalink)  
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Do we actually know how many fans were drunk and how many fans were drunk without tickets?

Strikes me that sort of info could go a long way towards explaining exactly what happened that day.............
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 10:46
  #149 (permalink)  

Ich bin ein Prooner.
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Is this the society you want? because it's the society you'll keep getting until the people at the top get jailed
Absolutely true. Unfortunately, the "people at the top", save a few worthy souls, are all into various sorts of rackets & fiddles, from pinching a few quid on expenses to rape, and perhaps, and probably, from what we are hearing, murder.
When they get to the higher echelons, it is in each other's interests to shield and protect any wrongdoings from reaching the public eye, lest it rocks their own particular sordid boat.
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 11:05
  #150 (permalink)  
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Never understood how it was the police at fault when a horde of Poofball fans behaved like animals as they usually do?
Well, the clubs PAY for them to conduct crowd control. That's a start.

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Old 17th Mar 2015, 11:57
  #151 (permalink)  
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Why does this only happen at football matches? Why can other sports cope without a major Police presence, without segregation?
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 12:12
  #152 (permalink)  
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It isn't only football matches. Do a bit of research on the Wales v England RU game last month, or various Rugby League incidents.
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 12:19
  #153 (permalink)  
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Interesting Pax and thank you for that - I was blissfully unaware of any issues at the Cardiff game, although Welsh fans behaviour at games, especially Friday nights, has been noticeably poor by Rugby standards. South Wales Police didn't seem to think much of it in the report I read.

Still, no segregation at games, no major Police presence, no herding of fans etc that you see at football matches.

Why is that?
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 12:37
  #154 (permalink)  
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When they get to the higher echelons
Sadly, all too many of those in the higher echelons have achieved their rank by knowing more about handshakes than about policemanship and common sense.

Duckenfield appears to be the Peter Principle personified.
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 15:11
  #155 (permalink)  
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Sadly Football fans in general were the cause for the fences which led to the deaths, however, The fences were up and known about so the Police should have considered them when opening the gates.
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 16:40
  #156 (permalink)  
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The police mistake may have indirectly led to the injuries and deaths but let's not lose sight of the fact that the direct cause was fans trying to push their way in to areas that were already packed.

All the emphasis seems to be on what the police did or didn't do, as if it's acceptable for football fans to behave in a way that would be considered outrageous if any other group did it.
You mean like people getting on overcrowded trains?

IMO people are "allowed" to assume that the Police know what they are doing. They're the ones with the CCTV and can see what is happening. If the police order some doors to be opened I think it is reasonable for a person to assume there will be space for them. The problem is that unless you're about 10 feet tall you can't see what's in front of you, especially what is at the front of a pen that is designed to hold hundreds, if not thousands, of people.
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 16:49
  #157 (permalink)  
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Somebody, somewhere must have pushed.
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 17:02
  #158 (permalink)  
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Mr Chips, you ask why this behaviour only happens at football matches and not at rugby games.

I think one answer comes from the England rugby coach, Clive Woodward, who said:

"I go to football matches whenever I can. There is a passion in football that does not exist in rugby"

Obviously no excuse for bad behaviour, but I agree with him that there is no comparison between the passion at a club football match and that at a club level rugby match.
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 17:04
  #159 (permalink)  
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I think it is a question of how that "passion" manifests itself. Believe me, there is passion in my corner of the South Stand at Harlequins, but never ever aggression....
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Old 17th Mar 2015, 17:46
  #160 (permalink)  
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As I posted in a previous thread on the subject...........

My friend, who was present at the event, said on the telephone to me a few hours later, "They were killed by their own kind".

If he were still alive I'n sure he would be contemptuous uf the current charade.
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