Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

Bible conundrum hampsterwheel

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Bible conundrum hampsterwheel

Old 25th Dec 2014, 16:50
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East sussex
Posts: 624
Bible conundrum hampsterwheel

I was asked this question today from a young (12 year old street wise male) family member.............

"If Mary and Josef were married, how come she was a virgin" I nearly choked on my cherry brandy, made my excuse and took their dog for a walk.
dazdaz1 is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 16:59
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 5,138
Jewish marriage law consists not only of ishut, the determination of prohibited and permitted partners, but of kiddushin, the legal process of establishing the marriage bond. The Bible has no single word for marriage, as it has none for religion. But the codes define it by these two categories: ishut and kiddushin, persons and process.


Maimonides begins his code on marriage with the Torah's unconditional requirement that a man and a woman may live together only with the formal sanction of kiddushin.


Before the revelation (at Sinai), a man would meet a woman on the street and if both desired marriage, he would bring her into his home and have intercourse privately [without the testimony of witnesses] and she would become his wife. When the Torah was given, the Jews were instructed that in order to marry a woman, the man should "acquire her" in the presence of witnesses and then she would become his wife. As the Torah says, "when a man takes a woman and has intercourse with her." This taking is a positive commandment and is performed in one of three waysówith money, by contract, or by cohabitiation... and it is everywhere called kiddushin or erusin.

And a woman who is "acquired" in one of these three ways is called mc'kudeshet or arusah [a betrothed woman]. And as soon as she is "acquired" and becomes betrothed, even though she has not cohabited and did not even enter the groom's home, she is a married woman.

The Jewish Marriage Ceremony - "According to the Laws of Moses and Israel": <i>Ke? dat Moshe Ve? Yisrael:</i> - Marriage
Checkboard is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 17:01
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Temporarily unsure of my position
Posts: 105
Lavender marriage?


Hat, coat, hate mail........
Flypro is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 17:18
  #4 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East sussex
Posts: 624
As the Torah says, "when a man takes a woman and has intercourse with her." This taking is a positive commandment and is performed in one of three waysóWITH MONEY, by contract, or by cohabitation.

Jezz!!!!! I hope non of my Brighton ladies escorts are Jewish, they could screw me for thousand for misinterpretation of my desires.
dazdaz1 is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 17:24
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,917
Further to Checkerboard's helpful and interesting explanation -

When the angel Gabriel visited Mary and told her she would give birth to a son, she was espoused/betrothed to Joseph but was still a virgin.
Mary was puzzled and asked 'How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?'
Gabriel explained that she would conceive of the Holy Ghost and give birth to the Son of God, whom she should call Jesus. He reminded her that, for God, nothing is impossible.
Mary gave birth to the Son of God.

Joseph was faithful to the law but did not want to expose her to public disgrace so he had in mind to divorce her (break the 'engagement') discreetly. However, Gabriel appeared to him (in a dream) and reassured him saying, 'Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.'
Flying Lawyer is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 17:34
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East sussex
Posts: 624
FL..."Gabriel also appeared to Joseph (in a dream) saying, 'Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.'

I would pay good money/go back in time to hear Joseph's reply, I would suggest..."You taking the pi**"?
dazdaz1 is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 18:08
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,917
dazdaz1

You can't go back in time but I recommend 'Jesus My Boy', a monologue in which Tom Conti relates the story of the birth of Jesus from Joseph's point of view.
Joseph relates, amongst other things, how he came to meet Mary and how he handled finding out that she was pregnant.
I think it's is still available on CD - possibly downloadable from the internet.

A few years ago, we were fortunate to get tickets for a one week re-run at a small theatre in North London. If I recall correctly, Conti did it as a favour to the theatre owner. It was very funny and Conti was brilliant. Although a comedy, the events - including those leading up to Jesus' death on the Cross - are handled sensitively and in a way which does not give offence to Christians.


Short clip from the original West End production:

Flying Lawyer is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 18:10
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: England
Posts: 97
"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"
David Hume (1711-1776)
airshowpilot is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 19:01
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 5,138
If it wasn't a VERY unusual event - it wouldn't be a miracle
Checkboard is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 19:26
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 5,138
Merry Christmas to you, henry
Checkboard is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 19:37
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Fife, Scotland
Age: 75
Posts: 247
Read somewhere recently that a 'virgin birth' at that time meant only that she was pregnant for the first time.

No idea whether that is true.
A A Gruntpuddock is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 20:01
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Penzance, Cornwall UK
Age: 81
Posts: 31
This is explained in 'Jesus the Man' by Barbara Thiering. Apparently the sect of which Joseph and Mary were members (the Essenes) had strict rules regarding marriage. There was more than one ceremony involved and intercourse was not permitted after the first ceremony, consequently the bride was still considered to be a virgin until other ceremonies took place weeks or months later.
Rosevidney1 is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 20:36
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: England
Posts: 172
Or it could be that the Greeks, when translating from Hebrew, confused the word for "young woman" with the word for "virgin".
papajuliet is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 21:01
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Vienna
Age: 36
Posts: 454
Bible conundrum

Like the German word "Jungfrau" and how it may be rendered several ways into English? Are you doubting the Gospel, translated and edited several times over since its source???

Heresy, I cry!!
Dash8driver1312 is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 21:10
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 5,138
Except that the Greeks didn't translate from the Hebrew.

The New Testament was probably originally written in Greek.

Originally Posted by wikipedia
The original texts were written in the first and perhaps the second centuries of the Christian Era, generally believed to be in Koine Greek, which was the common language of the Eastern Mediterranean from the Conquests of Alexander the Great (335Ė323 BC) until the evolution of Byzantine Greek (c. 600). All of the works which would eventually be incorporated into the New Testament would seem to have been written no later than around AD 150.[1]
Checkboard is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2014, 23:03
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Uk
Posts: 61
Bible conundrum

I recommend Prof Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion' to shed a little light on this particular subject. Happy Holidays everyone?
dingo9 is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2014, 00:39
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 74
Posts: 3,859
In an earlier thread I promised a festive punch on the nose for anyone who wished me "Happy Holidays" - consider your conk well and truly thumped! Oh and pass it on to Dawkins should you happen to bump into him!

Tankertrashnav is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2014, 00:49
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth Western Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 808
"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"
Yes, she was most likely getting a bit on the side. But then we live in a quantum world of probability, hence there is a finite probability of the egg self fertilizing

Oh my gollygosh, here are grown adults quoting a piece of hearsay, word of mouth many times over, plus inspired storytelling, and treating it as though it were the, um, Gospel Truth.
Regardless of ones particular belief in such things, there is a lot be learned from such things, more importantly it can be interesting.
I recommend Prof Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion' to shed a little light on this particular subject.
An extremist atheist fruit-loop just as dangerous as any religious zealot.
rh200 is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2014, 01:12
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: with the other ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
Posts: 0
On what behaviour, statements or actions of Richard Dawkins do you base your last statement?
Captain Dart is online now  
Old 26th Dec 2014, 01:55
  #20 (permalink)  

Official PPRuNe Chaplain
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Witnesham, Suffolk
Age: 77
Posts: 3,502
Very interesting, Checkers. Thank you for that. My minimal knowledge of Jewish marriage law has improved!


I've read several of Dawkins' books. I wasn't impressed or convinced by the content, his reasoning, or the conclusions, but that wasn't a surprise. I share rh200's view.

How the "Professor for the Public Understanding of Science" decided he could reinterpret that position into "professional debunker of religions" baffles me, and how it improves the understanding of science even more so.

There isn't much support for the "fringe" theory that Joseph and Mary were Essenes. Joseph was a village carpenter in Nazareth, which was not consistent with belonging to an extremist sect: the Essenes lived in closed communities, mostly in the desert (for example, in Qumran). John the Baptist is a more likely candidate, but even that is not widely accepted by mainstream scholarship.

There are several theories about the virgin birth. Mainstream theology takes the view that if the creator of the universe wants a virgin to conceive, then that is what will happen. Some debate the meaning of the Greek "παρθένον" in Luke 1:27 - it's the Koine Greek word for "virgin", and reflects the Hebrew of Isaiah 7:14. עלמה is rendered as παρθένος in the Greek translation: the Hebrew word is usually translated damsel, maid or virgin. It may mean "young woman" or "unmarried woman" - Checkers makes the point above.

Either way, it's late and it's been a busy day. Happy Christmas!
Keef is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.