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Bible conundrum hampsterwheel

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Bible conundrum hampsterwheel

Old 3rd Jan 2015, 10:49
  #381 (permalink)  
 
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This business about the demand by God to be worshipped seems difficult to equate to a 'perfect' God - it's very much a terrestrial human failing rather that a 'supreme being' requirement. That seems to me to be something dreamed up by humans with an eye to keeping the focus on their followers on this ideal. Church life does depend on the idea that if you repeat something often enough then you will believe it.

I'm also not sure which God people refer to, is this the God of the Old Testament who commanded tribal and warlike peoples with all that goes with that including mass slaughter or is it the 'other' God, the one Jesus talked about who preached love and peace to all mankind?

FF
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 11:06
  #382 (permalink)  
 
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I was in the school hall aged about seven and the headmaster was telling of the feeding of the five thousand. The thought just came into my head that it wasn't true.
Ah! - now that one was explained to me (possibly later than seven but still at school) to my satisfaction.

Most people did actually have food with them, but nobody wanted to admit to this in case they had to share it. The clever trick (yes, there was a real clever trick) was to persuade the first few people to share what they had, at which point the rest sheepishly admitted that they had brought their own.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 11:07
  #383 (permalink)  
 
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Church life does depend on the idea that if you repeat something often enough then you will believe it.
Yep. In some churches you're supposed to punish yourself if you miss a Sunday - they're worried that the conditioning will wear off without constant repetition.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 11:17
  #384 (permalink)  
 
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Funfly,
Does it matter which god?
At least Yaweh would let you die. Jesus's old man is going to punish you for all eternity.
Or the Muslim god concept which encompasses all.

Except as a way of trying to describe the forces of nature throughout the universe, they are all similarly flawed by attaching to them some form of sentience with humankind as the centre.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 12:09
  #385 (permalink)  
 
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Could any theist here please define what they mean by God?

What are it's attributes? What are it's abilities?
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 12:41
  #386 (permalink)  
 
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What are it's attributes? What are it's abilities?
Among other abilities, it would understand correct usage of the apostrophe.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 14:54
  #387 (permalink)  
 
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Yawn, grammar, I noticed I used their in mistake for there in my last post,quite simply I was tired. I would love to believe in these things,religion,ghosts,fairies. My brain just won't let me though. None of them make any sense whatsoever no matter how hard I try.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 15:41
  #388 (permalink)  
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All that this thread seems to 'prove' is that each human, based on what he's been told and on his own experience, fabricates in his own head some acceptable rationale for existence so that he isn't wandering around constantly muttering "WTF??"
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 16:08
  #389 (permalink)  
 
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I was helping to repair a friend's daughters central heating last weekend, and needed some PTFE and a couple of unions from B&Q.

Youngest son, (I think he is five or six) asked if he could come with me. No problem, I always enjoy teaching practical things to the next generation - so stuck him in the back and off we went.

He is a nice kid, but he never, ever stops talking. Normally I make suitable grunting noises to show I'm listening and let it waft pass me - but he started telling me about Sunday School and how he'd been learning about Jesus.

That is a typical example of indoctrination of the next generation of good catholics - and I reckon is child abuse. All the myths and fairy stories were presented to him as incontrovertible fact. I have no problems with adults believing if they want to, but to brainwash a six year old child who is incapable of any form of reasoned or rational debate is to my mind morally indefensible.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 16:18
  #390 (permalink)  
 
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Lifting

You're quite correct to point out my appalling grammar, it's unforgiveable. I, like a number of those engaging on this thread, can offer no reasoned explanation for my error.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 17:12
  #391 (permalink)  
 
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That is a typical example of indoctrination of the next generation of good catholics - and I reckon is child abuse. All the myths and fairy stories were presented to him as incontrovertible fact. I have no problems with adults believing if they want to, but to brainwash a six year old child who is incapable of any form of reasoned or rational debate is to my mind morally indefensible.
I shouldnt worry about it pvmw. I went to a Scottish Jesuit prep school which counts as Premier League indoctrination. I grew up hovering between atheism and agnosticism and haven't attended an RC service for 50 years, weddings and funerals excepted. My children attended a Cof E primary school, to which was added Methodist Sunday School (mainly so they could go on the treats and outings) - all three are now confirmed atheists.

Actually I don't see why having your children brought up in your own religion should be regarded as a child abuse, as when they are old enough they'll make up their own minds. After all I take it you are bringing up your own kids (if any) as atheists. That too could be regarded as indoctrination - is it any different? And dont forget, kids are inclined to reject their parents' advice - they may reject your teachings and become devout practitioners of a religion!
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 17:22
  #392 (permalink)  
 
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Actually I don't see why having your children brought up in your own religion should be regarded as a child abuse, as when they are old enough they'll make up their own minds.
Point is, if the brainwashing actually works they won't be able to, will they.

It's bizarre that those who go on most about "freedom of religion" are the ones who are most likely to deny it to their own children.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 17:23
  #393 (permalink)  
 
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After all I take it you are bringing up your own kids (if any) as atheists. That too could be regarded as indoctrination - is it any different?
Vastly different. Indoctrinating them in a religion is teaching them something which is unprovable and irrational; further, it is teaching them that it's OK ignore logic and evidence.

Bringing children up to make up their own minds, with no indoctrination, should be the norm. Thankfully mine are entirely rational adults now not having been subject to any indoctrination at home. They attended state schools where religion was not 'pushed' but taught as something you should know about in its many forms, but feel no need to believe in unless you feel drawn to it. They didn't.

As Marcus Brigstocke said:

"I'm sick of religious people forcing their children to define themselves by their parents' faith. A 4 year old child is no more a christian than he is a member of the Post Office Workers' Union"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv4mSDD4Wd8
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 17:43
  #394 (permalink)  
 
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GTW and SSD - I don't think you have grasped my point. It's not so easy to "brainwash" children as you think. I dont suppose either of you went to a Jesuit school. I did from the age of eight to twelve, but nevertheless, in spite of the best efforts of the Jesuits I grew up into someone who could be regarded as agnostic at best, and certainly someone who rejected the teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic church. I have many friends and relatives who received the same sort of education as I did, and most of them have similar beliefs (or lack of beliefs) to mine. In my experience religious brainwashing is more likely to occur among teenagers, who become susceptible to the activities of such sects as the Moonies who are known to use recognised brain-washing techniques.

Btw - I wonder if Marcus Brigstock is bringing up his children to have neutral, open-minded political views, or is he inflicting the same sort of socialist guff on them that he inflicts on the rest of us. Now that's child abuse!
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 18:05
  #395 (permalink)  
 
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I have been reading the Watchtower spring 2015 edition and there is an article about how life began.

In the article they make all the points about the areas where science has been unable to explain the mechanism and I, for one, would agree with this analyses of the situation.

They then say that they can supply what really happened - it was God. The proof being that it is written in the Bible.

So that's sorted then
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 18:14
  #396 (permalink)  
 
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Tanker - wasn't it the Jesuits who said 'give me the child until he is seven, and I will give you the man'? Didn't take long to indoctrinate, then! ;-)

At least the Jesuits are educated men. I had the bog-Irish Christian Brothers! Dave Allen knew all about them - I can see where many of his 'taking the pi55 out of the catholic church' sketches came from!
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 18:21
  #397 (permalink)  
 
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At least the Jesuits are educated men. I had the bog-Irish Christian Brothers!
Still blaming your school for your lack of education.

How old are you??
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 18:31
  #398 (permalink)  
 
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I think it comes back to the brain type again. One type will be easily programmable to accept whatever faith the teachers wish to insert. The other type is the one that presents problems. You tell those daft buggers that you have devised a cunning plan to get shot of a particular type of troublemaker.

You present all the evidence they could possibly need to go along with the scheme and still a few awkward types won't conform. Schindler for example.
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 18:35
  #399 (permalink)  
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So, for those people with children attending a school which teaches 'scripture' such as the nativity (from age 5), what do you suggest that the parents do about it?

Do they tell the young children that they are being taught 'lies' - and where do you draw the line between scripture and the other subjects? Do you instill the idea that all that they are being taught is false?

I can understand the choice between sending a child to a faith school where it is expected that bible stories will be promoted as fact, but it seems that secular state schools include Christmas stories and nativity play activities.

Do you keep the child excluded from these lessons?

I recall that the Roman Catholic children at my grammar school didn't attend our assembly sessions (even though there was little religion involved - and probably not much that was at odds with the RC teaching).
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Old 3rd Jan 2015, 18:37
  #400 (permalink)  
 
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You're quite correct to point out my appalling grammar, it's unforgiveable. I, like a number of those engaging on this thread, can offer no reasoned explanation for my error.
Just an empirical test to see if you, like many others on this thread, have had an irreversible irony bypass.
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