Bible conundrum hampsterwheel
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Heart
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Obgraham,
I had you down as a troll from the start and you're still at it. Just my opinion.
You use 'rationalist' as if it were an insult.
It is a rare thing for a non-religious person to be allowed to be offended. It is usually the screen religious people hide behind and believe to be for their use only.
It's not denigrating. It is entirely reasonable. And the gain of questioning the basis of religious beliefs is to promote harmony and inquiry and education and beauty and morality and peace and wonder and understanding.
I had you down as a troll from the start and you're still at it. Just my opinion.
You use 'rationalist' as if it were an insult.
It is a rare thing for a non-religious person to be allowed to be offended. It is usually the screen religious people hide behind and believe to be for their use only.
It's not denigrating. It is entirely reasonable. And the gain of questioning the basis of religious beliefs is to promote harmony and inquiry and education and beauty and morality and peace and wonder and understanding.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
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I think I'd like to see the legal case for christianity.
Criminal court or civil court?
Criminal court or civil court?
God on Trial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Timbuktoo
Posts: 567
Originally Posted by Mr Chips
I've read the whole thread. "You" have not been trying to be nice, and you wonder why the thread has become one-sided?
Believers definition of being nice: not having their beliefs challenged.
Believers definition of not being nice: having their beliefs challenged.
Let us get back to trying to understand by explaining the reasons for your belief, rather than continually ignoring the reasonable points raised whilst using attack on unbelievers as your method of explanation.
Why do you believe?
Is it simply you have faith?
Is it based on evidence, if so are you prepared to share it?
Originally Posted by Effluent Man
I have a theory that their are two different types of brain. One allows for religious belief the other does not.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
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have a theory that their are two different types of brain. One allows for religious belief the other does not.
Just curious, thanks.
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where do people like me fall who believe in God, but have no use for any type or style of religion and believe that the Bible
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Heart
Posts: 812
I don't see why 'god' is 'super'natural. It's just nature. On a supergalactic scale.
So getting back to the 'why' of religion....
If all nature, the whole spacetime continuum, is god, then the 'son' of god is what we call the sun. It brings life etc.
Died on the cross (of the zodiac) = reached its lowest point on the horizon at winter solstice.
Remained dead for three days = no perceptable movement.
Rose again and defeated darkness = spring equinox again bringing life. Etc, etc.
That's the short version.
So all religions bear almost exactly the same key features which are attempts by primitive minds to explain natural phenomena in anthropomorphic terms.
And now we have a significantly better understanding of the hows and wherefores.
So getting back to the 'why' of religion....
If all nature, the whole spacetime continuum, is god, then the 'son' of god is what we call the sun. It brings life etc.
Died on the cross (of the zodiac) = reached its lowest point on the horizon at winter solstice.
Remained dead for three days = no perceptable movement.
Rose again and defeated darkness = spring equinox again bringing life. Etc, etc.
That's the short version.
So all religions bear almost exactly the same key features which are attempts by primitive minds to explain natural phenomena in anthropomorphic terms.
And now we have a significantly better understanding of the hows and wherefores.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 890
I think that most people have religious belief, as it is extremely difficult to rigorously reject all ideas which are not rationally evidence-based.
A random list of religious ideas, in no particular order:
- God exists, in some form;
- The answers to life, where they exist, are found in a rational-scientific worldview;
- It is stupid for other people to fail to share my point of view in this matter;
- Meaning and purpose in life exist, and can be realised by doing xyz;
- Meaning & purpose in life are illusory;
- My money should best be used to help me & my own;
- Helping the poor is good;
- Some races are more advanced than others;
- It is wrong to discriminate between people on the basis of race;
- Sexual morality does not exist, as it is a social construct;
- Sexual morality exists and seriously affects life outcomes;
and so on...
It is possible to argue about the evidence for a particular fact such as whether the Jesus of the Bible exists, as this is not primarily a religious argument. Personally I can't be bothered restating excellent arguments found in readily accessible books. But I can argue about their merits. Such an argument hasn't appeared on this thread yet, AFAIK.
A random list of religious ideas, in no particular order:
- God exists, in some form;
- The answers to life, where they exist, are found in a rational-scientific worldview;
- It is stupid for other people to fail to share my point of view in this matter;
- Meaning and purpose in life exist, and can be realised by doing xyz;
- Meaning & purpose in life are illusory;
- My money should best be used to help me & my own;
- Helping the poor is good;
- Some races are more advanced than others;
- It is wrong to discriminate between people on the basis of race;
- Sexual morality does not exist, as it is a social construct;
- Sexual morality exists and seriously affects life outcomes;
and so on...
It is possible to argue about the evidence for a particular fact such as whether the Jesus of the Bible exists, as this is not primarily a religious argument. Personally I can't be bothered restating excellent arguments found in readily accessible books. But I can argue about their merits. Such an argument hasn't appeared on this thread yet, AFAIK.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
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Quote:
where do people like me fall who believe in God, but have no use for any type or style of religion and believe that the Bible
Probably under the Spirituality category Mr pilot. Completely different from institutionalised religion.
where do people like me fall who believe in God, but have no use for any type or style of religion and believe that the Bible
Probably under the Spirituality category Mr pilot. Completely different from institutionalised religion.
For me, it was the ludicrous stories pushed onto me as a child by 'institutionlised religion' (see someone's earlier post about the feeding of the five thousand), and the pointless repetitive joyless weekly chanting of the same old words (albeit in Latin back then) that alerted me to the fact this might be tosh.
Then as I began to question it more, the whole edifice just fell apart as having no substance whatever. I've seen no evidence in the nearly 60 years since to make me in any way reconsider that opinion. In fact, life experience has reinforced it.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by con-pilot
No, I just don't happen to believe that the human mind is the most powerful force in the Universe.
I'm not convinced it is necessarily sufficiently powerful enough to understand all we desire to understand. At the same time I believe we are in the infancy of discovering the enormity of its capability. If I am right we are going to be forever unable to answer certain questions, although we may come to accept that not everything has to occur for a greater purpose....a why. Consequently we may stop asking questions and searching for answers that do not exist?
With that I'm off for some shut eye.
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But still in the land of wibble. Institutionalised religion, or just a belief in the hereafter and the supernatural - if it doesn't pass the tests of proof and evidence, it's irrational. Dawkins has it, which is probably why he annoys those who believe.
Nor do I care that you don’t believe in God. Your choice.
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Why doesn't God reveal himself clearly and emphatically to the whole human race to dispel the doubts of us sceptics? The World Cup final (or World Series or inauguration of the US President) would be a good platform for maximum exposure. Alternatively he could appear simultaneously on every computer and smart phone screen in the world. We would all then be instant believers because the evidence would be irrefutable.
Would make no difference. God doesn't want us to know that he exists. Doesn't need too. Common sense would tell someone the complexity, order and structure in the universe, galaxy's, solar system, earth and the human body don't happen by random chance. Even scientist know that. I know that I'm not a scientist. Common sense.
But you answered it. Yes, you would be a believer. Big deal.
But would you worship him? Big difference.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by ruddman
Common sense would tell someone the complexity, order and structure in the universe, galaxy's, solar system, earth and the human body don't happen by random chance. Even scientist know that. I know that I'm not a scientist. Common sense.
When:
Throughout history the unexplained and previously attributed to Devine intervention has time and time again been subsequently explained by science.
Never in history has anything, not one solitary thing, been shown to be the result of Devine intervention.
Why does the same common sense not lead you to believe that yet again there is an explanation that has yet to be uncovered by science?
Please????
Originally Posted by obgraham
The tone of this thread has remained pretty civil, considering the topic.
Let's hope it persists.
Let's hope it persists.
Last edited by BabyBear; 3rd Jan 2015 at 08:46.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Errr, "God doesn't want us to know that he exists."?
I think it is quite clear that (if it existed) he very much does want you to know that he exists and he made it very clear by revealing his will allegedly on more than one occasion and left significant demands on how people should live their lives. And all the wailing, praying and devotion demonstrate that he very much needs to although one would think, applying common sense, that being omnipotent and all that it wouldn't matter that much what you thought.
That 'common' sense that "the complexity, order and structure in the universe, galaxy's, solar system, earth and the human body don't happen by random chance" is becoming rather less common.
That's what science, investigation and education have achieved. And as a natural phenomenon, what a fantastic and wondrous place it is.
As a designed and god-created, homo-centric system, what a wasteful mess.
I think it is quite clear that (if it existed) he very much does want you to know that he exists and he made it very clear by revealing his will allegedly on more than one occasion and left significant demands on how people should live their lives. And all the wailing, praying and devotion demonstrate that he very much needs to although one would think, applying common sense, that being omnipotent and all that it wouldn't matter that much what you thought.
That 'common' sense that "the complexity, order and structure in the universe, galaxy's, solar system, earth and the human body don't happen by random chance" is becoming rather less common.
That's what science, investigation and education have achieved. And as a natural phenomenon, what a fantastic and wondrous place it is.
As a designed and god-created, homo-centric system, what a wasteful mess.
Join Date: Jan 1999
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God doesn't want us to know that he exists. Doesn't need too.
But would you worship him?
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,334
He (Dawkins) doesn't annoy me in the slightest, see no reason why he should.
Nor do I care that you don’t believe in God.
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BabyBear's post 389 asks what for me is the question at the crux of this. I'd be very interested to see it answered.
