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Stay on the Outrage Bus! - VERDICT

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Stay on the Outrage Bus! - VERDICT

Old 1st Dec 2014, 07:30
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Stay on the Outrage Bus! - VERDICT

A homeowner is going on trial in Missoula, Montana for the killing of a teenage German exchange student who had entered his (open) garage intent on stealing some beer.

There are two German attorneys acting as amici curiae, I assume, for the dead student's parents, alongside the prosecutor. (Just to liven things up a bit, as if that were necessary, the parents are of Turkish background.)

On the side of the homeowner there are five (5) defense attorneys, with the lead attorney asserting that the homeowner was in fear for his life. Why he did not stay in the safety of his bedroom and call the cops is a good question, one that the defense might have to answer. On the other hand, the defense already has researched the background of the student, planning to refute any prosecution attempt to present the dead student as a model of good behavior.

This case will probably replicate much of the stand-off we have seen over Michael Brown, to create a highly polarized discussion void of nuance.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 07:42
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Old news already.....
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 07:48
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Not really ...

The killing was old news, but here in Germany at least, the trial of the killer is what has been awaited: the examination of the issues behind the bare facts.

This will rake up all the negatives from both sides: criminality of youth on one side; too-ready American resort to deadly force on the other.

Expect to see the mouth-breathing American gun faction asking why the kid was only hit with a few rounds from a shotgun, matched by the bleeding hearts of Germany and elsewhere asking why he should not have been left to go on his way with a few beers, unmolested: vigilantism facing off against permissiveness.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 07:50
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Reuters article from JUNE...

German officials have expressed outrage at the killing and the teen's father suggested to a German news agency that U.S. gun culture was at least partly to blame for his son's death.
the death of Diren Dede of Hamburg, who authorities said was killed while "garage hopping" in Missoula in a possible search for alcohol.
Seems to me, that if you know of the "gun culture" in the US, one would refrain from trespassing in someones garage, regardless of the law, which will ultimately decide the case.

Last edited by Gordy; 1st Dec 2014 at 07:51. Reason: My bad speeling.....
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 07:52
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From the NYTimes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/us...rage.html?_r=0

“Whatever happened to turning the lights on and yelling, ‘Hey kids, go home’?”

“Or closing the garage door?”
Let's not turn this into a gun debate. While a gun was used I see the issue being the so called castle doctrine.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 08:08
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Let's not turn this into a gun debate
You've got a hope.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 08:22
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There you have it, I think: A young man from Germany probably would never imagine being shot over stealing a few beers from a garage. On the other hand, this American homeowner certainly did imagine doing exactly that, shooting someone for entering his unlocked garage through a partially open door. A German homeowner would never expect to get away with doing that.

You really could not get two more diametrically opposed mindsets than these, the German and the American.

Here we just had a very high-profile case of an elderly man who shot and killed a young man who was fleeing a violent home invasion, one in which the man had been beaten and robbed. He was put on trial by the state for murder and acquitted, but he's now the target of death threats from the family, who are from some foreign culture that still practices vendetta. That recent case may make this new case especially resonant.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 08:29
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We in the rest of the western countries stopped executing people for theft a long time ago - it appears to continue in the USA. Being black and knocking on a door at night also results in execution along with many other activities. Having to arm yourself against your fellow citizens is a huge admission of a failed society under siege.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 08:39
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We in the rest of the western countries stopped executing people for theft a long time ag
Yes, hasn't that turned out to be a huge success.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 09:04
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Stay on the Outrage Bus!

Why don't we ship them off to Afghanistan
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 09:21
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Oh good, yet another "bash the American gun culture" thread
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 09:23
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Here we are again, with our US friends saying, essentially, that being shot is a fair and just penalty for being stupid.

Seems to me, that if you know of the "gun culture" in the US, one would refrain from trespassing in someones garage, regardless of the law, which will ultimately decide the case
Well, it's a point of view held by many, not only in the USA, and I'm not going to argue against it.

But, as before, it raises a legitimate question; if stupid people are shot in the USA, how come there are so many obese cops around?
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 09:36
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According to the NYT article I linked above:

... They passed a home whose garage door hung partially open. Using a cellphone for light, Mr. Dede headed in.

... Inside the house, motion sensors alerted Markus Kaarma, 29, to an intruder’s presence.

... he grabbed a shotgun from the dining room and rushed outside. He aimed into the garage and, according to court documents, fired four blasts into the dark.

... His lawyer, Paul Ryan, says Mr. Kaarma feared for his family’s safety and panicked that night. “He doesn’t know who’s there, what they’ve got, anything,” Mr. Ryan said. “He just didn’t know what was going on. Then he started to shoot.”

...two recent burglaries had made Mr. Kaarma and his partner, Janelle Pflager, feel like targets inside their home, Mr. Kaarma’s lawyer said. Someone had entered their open garage — the couple kept it open so they could duck out to smoke cigarettes — and stolen a wallet and credit cards,

... Ms. Pflager bought motion sensors and a video camera to track the intruders should they return, and put a purse with some marked belongings inside, so that they could be traced to anyone who stole them.

... A hairstylist .. told the police that Mr. Kaarma had come into the ... salon three days before the shooting and talked about how he had been waiting up with his shotgun for three nights “to shoot some kid.” Ms. Sherbondy told the police that Mr. Kaarma was being “extremely vulgar and belligerent,” according to court documents.

... Mr. Dede’s host parents, Mr. Smith and Kate Walker, who say they have never locked their doors and have never been burglarized, have spent the last week grieving.

Obviously not all the facts. It would seem to me that this individual set about seeking revenge and laid a trap. In my view that is not self-defense.

Again this isn't about guns, the crime could have been committed with a baseball bat, but then the kid would have lived.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 09:37
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how come there are so many obese cops around?
Because with a bullet's velocity on your side, a foot race is not necessary?

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Old 1st Dec 2014, 11:00
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chuks
There are two German attorneys acting as amici curiae, I assume, for the dead student's parents, alongside the prosecutor.
An amicus curiae (literally 'friend of the court') is, or certainly should be, neutral.


I can't, at the moment, understand why an amicus would appropriate in this case.
Perhaps that will become clear in due course.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 11:07
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Perhaps to explain the expectations of the deceased, and therefore provide some rationale for his actions, in terms of how this crime is treated in Germany?

You leave the door open, but set up motion sensors?
Opening my garage door takes a button press on the remote, and involves considerably less effort than setting up motion sensors. Or avoiding the loaded shotgun in the dining room. I'm with ExXB on this one.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 11:35
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Perhaps to explain the expectations of the deceased .....
You may be right. I'm not familiar with American court procedures/rules except in general terms.

However, it seems to me (on the limited information available) that the issues in this trial will be the defendant's actions: why he fired, what was in his mind when he did so, whether he was lawfully entitled to do so in the circumstances etc - not the expectations of the deceased.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 12:20
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Again this isn't about guns, the crime could have been committed with a baseball bat, but then the kid would have lived.
Well, it IS difficult to beat a kid to death with a baseball bat, and then claim you never saw the intruder...

A gun is a powerful thing - it lends that power to the possessor, and opens up fatal options that a normal person wouldn't otherwise contemplate. That is, a gun gives you the ability to shoot, no gun makes you think about locking your door and calling the police...
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 12:26
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Nothing about obeying the laws of the visited nation?

Or having a general sense of what not to do in order to avoid having the locals thrash you?

Standards must be slipping...


I know nothing about this case.

Since I have loaded weapons in my home in the event I need them come some oh-dark-thirty intrusion, am I setting a trap?

Nothing about the fella who decides he wants to take a look at my stuff despite not having an appointment?

'Muricans. Whaddya gonna do with 'em?

Washington Mother Shoots Home Intruder To Save Children On Thanksgiving
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 13:13
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The Home Owner (who shot the German/Turkish Fellow ) has some major problems in this if he was outside and shot blindly into the Dark.

Had he walked into the dark Garage and then encountered the Perp....then he would be on very solid ground.

As it is from what is reported so far in this thread....he better pack a Tooth Brush when the Jury/Judge announces the Verdict.
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