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Stay on the Outrage Bus! - VERDICT

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Stay on the Outrage Bus! - VERDICT

Old 2nd Dec 2014, 08:19
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Seldom, You got tugged on the same rap that you are always trying to catch me on. You and I both know the feelings of those posters towards the perp but they use the fact that they didn't actually use the term "OK guy" to allow some wriggle room.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 08:33
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Ef,

The consensus amongst several posters here is the guy has not done much, if anything at all wrong and that under state law he probably/should get away with it. In fact some would say the only guilt belongs to the deceased for stealing in the first place.

I am certain that I can't ever once remember on any gun thread contesting the rights of US home owners to use lethal force in defence of their homes, I have taken the [email protected] lots about the notion that many think they are Raylen Givens but would probably wet themselves come the day but never contested their rights on this matter.

This however is totally different and if the facts as reported are true how this is not a cold blooded murder is beyond me. The guy set and baited a trap then executed the first person that walked into it and I am not seeing any kind of defence scenario in that.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 09:21
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
In fact some would say the only guilt belongs to the deceased for stealing in the first place.
Yet there is no evidence to suggest the teenager was stealing, had any intent to steal, or had been involved in stealing in the past.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 12:12
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Ah, that tireless Mr. Smiley is still at it, I see.

Gently tugging on threads to weave a fabric. Subtly exploring the evidence to expose flaws in the plan.

Pity the patch formed is of pink velvet and the hole is on a dinner jacket, but never mind, it is the careful observation and meticulous tradecraft application that is key.

Simple items like pejorative adjectives in front of "homeowner" are to be ignored since they are simply a way of disguising the true thoughts of the writer.

Ignoring the simple fact of Herr Dede the Younger actually entering illegally the premises of another is something not germane to the issue at hand.

The indicted homeowner apparently set a trap. The German willingly, of his own choosing, and under his own power, entered the home of another looking, according to a fellow trespasser on numerous other such events, for "whatever could be stolen."

Nope, the fault rest entirely on the shooter.

Never mind the fact that this German could have not been shot if he hadn't gone into another's garage without permission.

Like me attempting to preach the New Testament Gospels in Saudi Arabia or Britain, such actions can have very real, very immediately physical consequences in various countries around the world, including the U.S.

Someone else may have eventually been shot according to the media reports of the homeowner's mindset. (And those are being accepted at face value despite countless examples of said rags getting the facts wrong, sometimes inadvertently, many times deliberately). Caveats about "massive amounts of salt" are likewise lint on the threads being pulled.

Indeed, such is the sheer analytical horsepower applied combined with decades of relentless experience, that Mr. Smiley can 'suss' out who would willingly have a drink with him. Differing opinions are merely inconvenient to the logical conclusions. I'd almost think Mr. Smiley has taken residence at 221 Baker Street.

A junior assistant to Mr. Smiley repeatedly posts "We'll never know what the kid's intentions were" despite posting a media report where the above co-criminal admits they had done such dozens of the times before and that Herr Dede the Younger did it again in this instance. Trolling? Non-native English speaker? Stupid? The possibilities are nearly endless.

If such sartorial repairs are to be attempted in the future, please remember, that one, of course, dresses to the right.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 12:37
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by brickhistory View Post
Someone else may have eventually been shot according to the media reports of the homeowner's mindset. (And those are being accepted at face value despite countless examples of said rags getting the facts wrong, sometimes inadvertently, many times deliberately). Caveats about "massive amounts of salt" are likewise lint on the threads being pulled.

Absolutely, which is actually the point in question. I know you struggle with my balanced thought processes on these threads but lets be clear about what I have said at, #78 I wrote


Based on the reported details, I am as unsure as most here as to there accuracy, but the notion that a guy who sets a trap and then executes a guy who gets caught in that trap is somehow an OK guy bemuses me, doesn't surprise me but does bemuse me........


I am quite clear as to how I arrive at my opinion which I suspect you have missed.


When the case comes to court the 'facts' will no doubt be revealed but based on what has been written here the highlighted part of your text above is without doubt 100% accurate.

Last edited by Seldomfitforpurpose; 2nd Dec 2014 at 14:57.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 12:38
  #106 (permalink)  
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entered the home of another looking, according to a fellow trespasser on
numerous other such events, for "whatever could be stolen."
So where does that snippet come from?

Reading the link in post#34 the other person appears to have not entered the premises.
On this particular night, Pazmino and Dede were walking down the street, when Dede wordlessly slipped into Kaarma’s open garage. Pazmino told police that while he stood waiting for his friend to return, he heard an unfamiliar voice say, “I see you there.”
as for the previous events

Pazmino, who was with Dede the night of the shooting, said on several occasions prior to April 27 they had stayed in the car while their friends entered other open or partially open garages.
Trial begins Monday for Missoula man who fatally shot exchange student

Perhaps those that are so keen that folk use the information given correctly, should ensure they should do the same
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 13:10
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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. . . Ah, so the getaway driver is not complicit in the bank job, one assumes.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 13:15
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Yet there is no evidence to suggest the teenager was stealing, had any intent to steal, or had been involved in stealing in the past.
By mistake I left my Garage Door open and the entry door to the Kitchen unlocked. We have had two Break-In's and a series of thefts from Parked Cars in the Neighborhood in the past several Months.

If a Individual had found his way into my house and I awoke to discover him in the House....would I have been "Guilty" of setting a Trap?

If I had shot him dead upon encountering him would I have been "guilty" of "Executing" him?

What legitimate business did he have inside my Home WITHOUT properly announcing his presence and asking for permission to enter my Premises?

Intent is an easy thing to define both for the Home Owner and the Burglar.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 13:27
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Bob,

Let me ask you this. If instead of entering your home an intruder had, instead, started ransacking your garage would you, assuming you are armed, have entered the garage proper and without identifying the suspect, fired blindly into that garage?
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 13:42
  #110 (permalink)  
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Ah, so the getaway driver is not complicit in the bank job, one assumes
There is little doubt they were imnplicated by being there, the statement that he had entered homes on numerous other such events is patently not correct.

Yes he was there but sat in a car.

Similarly the other person is described as a trespasser yet in all probability stayed on the highway so did nor step on private property
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 14:13
  #111 (permalink)  
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The focus now is on the homeowner; he is the one on trial.

It will be interesting to read about how the trial goes, I think. I will be surprised if the homeowner gets off by pleading self-defense. The simplest idea, that "Well, the student/burglar was in the guy's garage, so the guy had a right to shoot him because the student/burglar had no right to be in there .... " I just don't see that idea being accepted as correct.

There was a case in Florida not long ago when a deliveryman was shot dead, just for being on some fellow's property. The shooter tried to use this sort of "stand your ground" law, but ended up being convicted of either manslaughter or murder.

There, of course, things were much clearer, but even in this case it seems clear that the student/burglar was no real threat to the homeowner, safe up in his bedroom as the incident began. That the student/burglar was a threat to his property, well, yes, but then the obvious question must be, "Why did you leave the garage door open in the first place, if you were so worried about being burgled again?"

It really does look as if the homeowner was much more focused on killing a burglar by setting a baited trap than he was on keeping his property safe.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 14:29
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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RGB,

The mere fact the Burglar was inside the Garage which in my case is an integral part of the House itself (remember the Kitchen Entry Door) then under my State Law he is inside my Home.

I would never shoot "Blindly" as I am trained to shoot either Center of Mass or Head depending upon the situation, distance, lighting, level of threat,etc.

In my State, if a Burglar is inside your Home after Dark or during the Normal Times you sleep (assuming you work nights...sleep days) then the Law is very lenient about the use of Deadly Force. Pretty much the Burglar forfeits any protection so long as he presents a threat to anyone in the Home.

That same State Law does not grant that same leniency to your Car out in the Driveway or a Detached Garage or Tool Shed. The Thief, in those cases and not Burglar, is free to do what he is doing without having to worry about being shot on sight as he would be inside the Home.

As long as the Thief runs away...walks away....but does not pose a threat to the Home Owner while outside the Home he is safe.

If he advances upon the Home Owner or poses a threat by displaying a gun or displays some other kind of weapon and offers violence, all that changes.

It is all Situational and every event has to be investigated by the Police who usually will consult with the Prosecutor to determine if Charges are warranted.

In my County, shooting a Burglar is almost considered a Civic Duty by the current Sheriff and Prosecutor, much like Voting, Jury Duty, and rescuing drowning people.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 14:32
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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it seems clear that the student/burglar was no real threat to the homeowner,
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

So let me pose this to Chuks:

How would you feel if this incident occurred in Saudi. The "students" have admitted to stealing correct? I believe the law in Saudi calls for amputation of a hand.

Last edited by Gordy; 2nd Dec 2014 at 14:35. Reason: added more
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 14:52
  #114 (permalink)  
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How would I feel?

What, about how the Saudis run things, decapitating women who run off to get married without permission, that sort of thing? Chopping off heads, hands and feet? Practicing one of the most brutal, intolerant, primitive forms of Islam currently found?

Gee, I don't really know how I would feel about how the Saudis might deal with a young man caught stealing, but why do you ask?

Ever stolen anything, anything at all, or perhaps merely found yourself under suspicion of theft? Are you ready to face having a hand chopped off? Me, no thanks; I have to eat with my hands, sometimes.

Do you have, perhaps, a son, one who sometimes does stupid or wrong things? I do.

I don't think my son would sneak into a garage to try and steal beer. He might, on the other hand, do what that Japanese fellow did, ring a stranger's doorbell to ask directions. My son certainly banged into someone's nice, shiny car, doing a crap job of parking his SUV (although he contacted the owner afterwards). If he did any of those things, I would not be reconciled to seeing him lose a hand or his life for that.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 14:59
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Boudreaux Bob View Post
By mistake I left my Garage Door open and the entry door to the Kitchen unlocked. We have had two Break-In's and a series of thefts from Parked Cars in the Neighborhood in the past several Months.

If a Individual had found his way into my house and I awoke to discover him in the House....would I have been "Guilty" of setting a Trap?

If I had shot him dead upon encountering him would I have been "guilty" of "Executing" him?

What legitimate business did he have inside my Home WITHOUT properly announcing his presence and asking for permission to enter my Premises?

Intent is an easy thing to define both for the Home Owner and the Burglar.

Not what is being claimed here so not really a fair comparison......
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 16:32
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Kansas Minister Shoots Intruder In The Head | The Daily Caller
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 17:05
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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These guys are often seen walking into unlocked houses..

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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 19:02
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Gee, I don't really know how I would feel about how the Saudis might deal with a young man caught stealing, but why do you ask?
I ask because you seem to not agree with the fact that laws are different in different countries. The way I see it, if I break a law in Germany then I expect to be judged and punished based upon the laws of the land in which the crime was committed.

It appears that your argument is that the defendant in this case should be subject to German law and not the law where he lived. Conversely, you seem to be saying that the trespasser did nothing wrong.

And yes, I have been charged with an offense many years ago in a foreign country and was subject to their laws and punishment. I did not complain and claim to be a foreigner and ask to be subject to my home country laws. And NO I would not steal in Saudi, because I would not want to lose a hand...........
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 19:56
  #119 (permalink)  
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No argument as such ....

I wrote that the American defendant may be extradited to be tried in Germany under German law for a crime against a German citizen that was committed in the USA. It's not that he should or should not be, just that he may be. That's a fact of German law and, I assume, an extradition treaty between Germany and the USA; it's not my personal opinion.

You may commit a crime against some country from outside that country, yet find yourself subject to trial in that country. For instance, we often try and convict dopers for their smuggling activities when the actual crime took place outside the USA.

The fellow who killed Danny Pearl in Pakistan? He's locked up in Guantánamo right now: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. He never did anything wrong in the USA, did he?

Personally, I don't think that shooting this German was correct, even though he certainly seemed to be burgling the shooter's garage. Let's see what the jury has to say about that after hearing the testimony, shall we? You might think it was okay to kill him, I might not, but it's the jury's call on that, not ours.

It's not that this fellow has a choice about which set of laws he's going to be tried under. First he has to answer to the State of Montana for killing that German, there in Montana. Then he may have to answer to the German state for the same crime, killing one of their nationals, and never mind where. I guess he should have picked someone from right there in town to shoot, huh?
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 20:12
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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chuks, you and numerous others, seem to be giving the dead German a pass in culpability for his own demise.

I don't condone what the homeowner apparently did. The circling back part combined with the shooting blindly plus the threats to shoot somebody don't bode well for him being totally acquitted of any crime.

The line between self-defense/castle doctrine and an ambush does appear to have been crossed.

But, the deceased would NOT be deceased by the actions of the homeowner if the deceased had not trespassed.

Someone else might, but not this German on that day.

There is definite personal choice involved by both parties in this incident.

One choice got him killed. The other is likely to get him jailed.

But both took actions that led to this outcome.
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