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Stay on the Outrage Bus! - VERDICT

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Stay on the Outrage Bus! - VERDICT

Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:12
  #81 (permalink)  

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Have we been reading the same thread?
Yes, so I guess you will have to give me an example.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:18
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by con-pilot View Post
Yes, so I guess you will have to give me an example.

#24 then on from there......................
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:25
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Not even post #24 suggests the homeowner is an ok guy, it discusses his defence under law.
So, in summation, the homeowner was trigger-happy, but perhaps justifiably so. He did exercise poor judgment in firing blindly.
Nobody is saying the homeowner is an ok guy, they are discussing the likely outcome of the case. Yes, I've read the whole thread, just now.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:25
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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@ seldom... Kinda reading into that what you want, aren't you?
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:31
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Matari View Post
@ seldom... Kinda reading into that what you want, aren't you?

Nope, just reading it...........
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:35
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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I realize you're on some sort of mission to paint brickhistory as some sort of post-modern Alley Oop, but really, try to give it a rest. I suspect you'd much rather have him as a neighbor than your garden - variety UK chavs.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:41
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Matari View Post
I realize you're on some sort of mission to paint brickhistory as some sort of post-modern Alley Oop, but really, try to give it a rest. I suspect you'd much rather have him as a neighbor than your garden - variety UK chavs.

Absolutely, and I have no doubt that over a few beers he and most folk on here would find me to be a 'same wave length' guy however the notion that the the 'subject' of this thread is not guilty of cold blooded murder is beyond me.


Set a trap then kill...............
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:46
  #88 (permalink)  

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Set a trap then kill...............
This may come as a total shock to you, but I agree.

Assuming that you meant to post; "Set a trap then to kill.........."
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:46
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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some sort of mission to paint brickhistory as some sort of post-modern Alley Oop
Brickhistory doesn't need any help doing that.

I suspect you'd much rather have him as a neighbor than your garden - variety UK chavs.
If that was the only choice, so would I.
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:51
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by con-pilot View Post
This may come as a total shock to you, but I agree.

Assuming that you meant to post; "Set a trap then to kill.........."

Absolutely...........


Killing in defence is one thing but setting a trap then killing is another.


Not sure I would see that as a self defence thing at all........
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Old 1st Dec 2014, 23:55
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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The main problem here is that he supposedly set a trap, something which is general frowned upon in our society. After all, if you have a predictable problem, the police should be able to deal with it.

As some people have mentioned, we generally don't get the death sentence for stealing, maybe thats part of the problem. The fact is the system is failing, and its only getting worse.

Someone asked was there a drop in theft or break ins after that, who knows. But for something like that to have a sustainable effect, it would need to be acknowledged and accepted as okay by society. Another words, "you steel a mans stuff he can kill you". Sort of puts some perspective on the whole piece of sh!t stealing stuff, because you can scenario. But whats the side effects of such a policy?

The side effects will obviously have an increase in innocent people being killed. The other is crim's will most likely just arm up more and be more violent from the get go. Hence it is a trade off of risk versus reward.

The fact we are not allowed to set mantraps in our society and if thats what he did, he will most likely pay a price for it, regardless of the morality of it.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 00:00
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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What defense shall the Defendant use in this case.....Self Defense, Castle Doctrine Law....Stand Your Ground? Each is an option but each comes with its own peculiar liabilities under Montana Law.

The Evidence and Testimony is going to be a tough obstacle to get over in proving Innocence. A key issue to consider is the fact the Home Owner was in fact charged with a crime by the Prosecutor in this Case.

That suggests the facts point to the Home Owner being seen to be outside the strictures of the pertinent Laws.

Missoula teen's killing could test 'castle doctrine'



Bronx, coming from a Law and Order City like the Big Apple as you do....well at least until the past two Mayors anyway....I should think you and Brick would be far closer to agreeing than you would differing on how to handle Criminals?
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 00:05
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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The other is crim's will most likely just arm up more and be more violent from the get go.
I doubt teenagers will arm up to steal beers from garages. They will likely just stop doing it.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 00:11
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Why is it I have a complete inability to understand people who "Steal" anything?

Just as I do not understand people who Lie....especially when they know they shall get found out.

I kind of like the Muslim way of dealing with Thieves....at least you can much easily spot them as anyone minus a Hand or Hand and Foot might just be worth keeping an Eye on if they get near your valuables.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 01:12
  #95 (permalink)  
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Not so long ago in Montana they used to hang horse thieves and cattle rustlers as soon as they were caught. There was, you might say, zero tolerance for such anti-social behavior.

What this homeowner did that repulses me is, if the reportage is correct, was to shoot blindly at his target with little assessment of a threat to his safety or that of his family.

I'd like to bring up this question to our European interlocutors:

What if the homeowner said he had been drinking all day and was quite drunk when he became aware of the intrusion? Say he claims he had been on the internet reading about Ferguson, the erosion of rule of law, and in his state of reduced judgment and rising anger, went out to the garage to confront this violator of the sanctity of his home.

What would you charge him with, and what sort of sentence would you think reasonable?
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 01:31
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Nice try.....he did not check himself into Rehab and formally admit to an illness called Alcoholism. Now if he had done that....he would have been Home Free!
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 04:53
  #97 (permalink)  
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Good question!

Here in Germany you often read about people being excused for having done something because they were so drunk that they were not in control of themselves. Another good one is claiming some sort of mental black-out.

You often see a typical German defendant sat there not saying a word. There's a very high-profile case running right now, in fact, the trial of a woman, Beate Zschšpe, who's accused of complicity in the neo-Nazi murders of a whole lot of foreigners and a German policewoman. She's the only survivor of a trio and she refuses to say very much about what she knows, making the task of the prosecution very difficult.

By the way, the homeowner doesn't need to prove his innocence; the state needs to prove his guilt. Big difference!
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 04:55
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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If the defendant acted under a reasonable belief that his actions were necessary to protect himself or other persons in the house at the time, then shooting the intruder would be allowed under Montana state law. If the actions taken were not done so under that reasonable belief, then the action taken was not in accordance with the law and was a criminal act.

That is the question for the jury to decide. The above is likely to be included in the instructions to the jury from the judge before they begin their deliberations.

This case isn't about guns. It's about the intent of the defendant when he made the choice to shoot. If his purported belief that shooting the intruder was necessary to protect himself or another is found not to meet the reasonableness test, he loses.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 07:53
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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The nationality of the boy who died (and the law in his homeland) is irrelevant I agree. My take is that he was killed while committing a crime, harsh but tough. Had he not been committing that crime he'd more than likely be alive today so whereas his family get my sympathy and condolences there is no moral high ground for them to speak from.
But....
That doesn't mean (IMHO only) that the shooter is innocent here. Given the 'reported' facts so far he was at the very least reckless or negligent. Garage door open 'so he can smoke' despite being a victim of a number of past burglaries? Did he really think he was in danger? I call BS on that, door open, motion sensors on, loaded shotgun to hand. My guess is he wanted to scare someone. Not firing considered, no more than necessary, aimed shots at an effective (I.E. dangerous) target is a crime. If guilty he should be punished, regardless of gun ownership law.
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Old 2nd Dec 2014, 07:55
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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Some more information from. Jury to be determined Tuesday morning in Kaarma murder trial


***

Dede's parents, Celal and Gulcin Dede, arrived in Missoula last week and observed the jury selection process from the first row of the courtroom Monday.

Gulcin wore a T-shirt with her son's photo on it and a German quote on the back. Translated into English, it says, "You will always live in our hearts." She started crying when Deputy County Attorney Jennifer Clark, who is assisting Paul, introduced herself and shook her hand.

Two prominent German attorneys, Andreas Thiel and Bernhard Docke, accompanied Dede's parents.

Docke said he traveled to Missoula to help the family understand the court proceedings and translate for them. The couple will remain in Missoula with Thiel for the duration of the trial; Docke will have to leave in mid-December. An unnamed Turkish exchange student studying at the University of Montana is also accompanying the parents and translating into their native tongue.

Docke said he doesn't know if the family will file a civil lawsuit against Kaarma if the outcome isn't what they hope for but indicated that in Germany, Kaarma's actions wouldn't be considered self-defense if the evidence supports what has been reported by law enforcement and prosecutors.

"If the Missoulian is right on the facts, the defendant announced his actions at a barber shop," he said. "And if the Missoulian is right, he left the garage door open and installed video equipment, and he put a purse in the open garage. It seems that he was waiting (for) someone to trespass in the garage."
This explains the roles of the two German lawyers, to help the family and not the court.
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