Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

Stay on the Outrage Bus! - VERDICT

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Stay on the Outrage Bus! - VERDICT

Old 1st Dec 2014, 17:47
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 57
Posts: 664
rgb, thanks.

Stupid, but dead, German trespasser.

Stupid, but alive, dope smoking homeowner.

Who went, according to media (so massive salt intake), outside his home, circled back up the driveway and unloaded his shotgun multiple times without knowing what or whom he was shooting.


Negligence in there somewhere, I bet.
brickhistory is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 17:54
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,420
Here's a story; A had his car stolen from his drive one day. He heard that there was a small gang of thieves, maybe just one person, operating in his area. He boasted in the diner/pub that he would get the little scrote, called B.

So A bought a used car, and parked it in a little used car park one evening, leaving the door open and the key in the ignition.

He retired to a point about 100m away, where he concealed himself in a firing position with his rifle and NV sight (this is the USA). When B appeared and got into the car, as A knew he would, A waited until he ran the engine, then shot B in the head.

A turned himself in immediately, saying that he was defending his property, and that B deserved what he got.

I'm interested in the views from the USA about this; it's not an exact parallel, but it is a development of the German-in-the-garage matter, with the same features of a carefully laid trap, and a killing when there was no real threat to the life of the shooter.

Would you give A a lethal injection or a medal?
Capot is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:04
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,897
Car theft does not, rightly, carry the Death sentence.

The root of the problem lies in the inability of the Police in some jurisdictions (worldwide, not just the USA) to protect the life and property of individuals. This in turn is a fundamental failing of Government. Indeed, the protection of the individual is the primary function of Government.

In the USA in 2012, 88.1% of vehicle theft cases were not cleared (i.e. someone arrested and handed over to the court system), i.e. In 8 out of 9 cases, no one was apprehended. This is the National average, but also the average for cities the size of Missoula.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...ent/clearances

Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 1st Dec 2014 at 18:17.
Fox3WheresMyBanana is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:07
  #44 (permalink)  

Aviator Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 74
Posts: 2,394
I guess they could go for murder one, but my bet would be some kind of manslaughter conviction.

The door to the garage was left partially open, but then there is no law saying that a home owner or renter must close and lock all of their doors. In a perfect world there would be no reason for locks on doors. My maternal grandparents lived in a small town in New Mexico and I’m not too sure they even had locks on their doors, I know that my grandfather always left the keys to his vehicles in the vehicles.

Once I rode with my grandfather to a store in his pickup, when we got out of the truck he left the keys in the ignition. When I asked him about this, he replied that everybody knew it was his pickup, so why take the keys out of the truck.

Now, my grandfather had a shotgun and usually left the side door to the garage open. But for him to shoot someone that went into the garage would have been unthinkable. As it would be to me, unless there was a clear and present danger to my family, pets or myself.

Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, theft does not deserve a death sentence. That’s what insurance is for.

With the case in Montana, the home owner left the garage door open to trap someone, anyone, so he could shoot them. At least that is my take on it from all the media reports, but we know how accurate the media is. However, if the media reports hold up in court, this guy should go to prison for involuntary manslaughter at the least.
con-pilot is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:08
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: egsh
Posts: 415
It is frightening that trespass is regarded by some here as a crime which can be punished by summary execution without trial.

In some other jurisdictions, trespass is a civil matter, with civil penalties concordant with the "damage" caused. (Used to be six pence or one shilling, if I remember correctly). If theft occurred, it was not trespass, but theft. There are in most jurisdictions sanctions in place in criminal law for that transgression.

Anybody "unsure of present position" should crap themselves if that happens when they are in the USA. They might be trespassing. Best to have made a will and provided for their dependants.
wings folded is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:12
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 57
Posts: 664
He retired to a point about 100m away
See, raht thar's yer problem.

Y'all 're usin' that thar metricky system.

It don't work here.

Now if A had been in his car, then it's game on.

Kinda like a certain cop in a certain Missouri town recently.
brickhistory is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:12
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 64
Posts: 436
Capot:

Your scenarios smells very badly of "entrapment." And I doubt "B" will get away with his crime.

As far as the doper in Montana is concerned: As a firearms owner myself I would never, ever shoot blindly into anywhere or anyone. Target acquisition and identification are the least things a responsible firearms owner should do. And preferably aligned with a possible discovery of what the other person's intent is.

I don't think the Montana homeowner is going to get away with his crime. Even reading Montana's self-defense laws one should note that a perceived threat to life and or property is needed for this. I do not see how Mr. doper could have perceived any sort of threat without first identifying the target of that threat. Additionally, it can be argued that by placing whatever it was he placed in the garage as a lure, that it constitutes entrapment.
rgbrock1 is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:12
  #48 (permalink)  

Aviator Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 74
Posts: 2,394
I'm interested in the views from the USA about this; it's not an exact parallel, but it is a development of the German-in-the-garage matter, with the same features of a carefully laid trap, and a killing when there was no real threat to the life of the shooter.

Would you give A a lethal injection or a medal?
Sorry, didn't this see before I posted my prior.

As far as I am concerned, that is premeditated murder, as in murder in the first degree.

So, as I posted above;

as far as I am concerned, theft does not deserve a death sentence
That applies in this case as well.
con-pilot is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:14
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 64
Posts: 436
con-pilot wrote:

As it would be to me, unless there was a clear and present danger to my family, pets or myself.

Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, theft does not deserve a death sentence. That’s what insurance is for.

With the case in Montana, the home owner left the garage door open to trap someone, anyone, so he could shoot them. At least that is my take on it from all the media reports, but we know how accurate the media is. However, if the media reports hold up in court, this guy should go to prison for involuntary manslaughter at the least.
I 100% agree with you buddy. 100%.
rgbrock1 is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:15
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 57
Posts: 664
But, to play devil's advocate (and defense attorney), no matter what I placed as bait in my own garage, the crime is the trespass and theft.

Doper home-owner did stupid things, potentially negligently criminal, but not murder, IMO.

My money will be on some sort of manslaughter.
brickhistory is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:16
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richard Burtonville, South Wales.
Posts: 2,057
The shooter has been charged. Isn't the outrage a bit early?

CG
charliegolf is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:17
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 57
Posts: 664
Never too early.

Poor blacks, or Europeans.

Both classes of victims for white Americans.

It's the law today.
brickhistory is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:18
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 64
Posts: 436
brick:

Round II of devil's advocate: So, with what you are saying you agree, then, with the verdict in Oscar Pistorius's trial i.e., manslaughter but not murder? Just curious.
rgbrock1 is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:22
  #54 (permalink)  

Aviator Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 74
Posts: 2,394
I remember a case, many years ago and to be honest I cannot recall if it happened in the US or England when I was living there.

A farmer had been having a lot of thefts of his farming equipment. So he rigged a shotgun pointing at the barn door, where it would fire if the door was opened.

Sure enough a few nights later the thefts returned, one opened the barn door and the shotgun fire killing the guy behind him.

The farmer was convicted of murder.


And the more I think about it, I really believe that this happened here in the US.
con-pilot is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:30
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 57
Posts: 664
rgb, can't say.

I did not follow the trial. What I think I know:

He shot his girlfriend through a closed door.

He claimed he was in fear for his life and shot through a closed door not knowing who it was he was firing at.

Prosecution couldn't prove murder, but did prove he opened fire without knowing what/who he was aiming at.

Manslaughter sounds right in a legal sense to me.

I defer to those who either followed the trial or know the South African laws.

Con's scenario is pre-meditated and negligent. But what if Farmer Brown had hired a security guard and the same result occurred?

Things get tricky. Common sense should apply.

Things like:

Don't go into someone's house or garage without their explicit permission.

Don't shoot blindly into a darkened room without knowing what, if any, the threat is, and where that threat is.

Doper homeowner could have easily been taken out by a smarter bad guy with a gun - dark outside, blam! blam! blam! in the center of the garage, but I'm flattened against the side wall and now have a flash point to aim for.

Lots of stupid in the Montana case to go around.
brickhistory is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:35
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: egsh
Posts: 415
brickhistory
Who went, according to media (so massive salt intake), outside his home, circled back up the driveway and unloaded his shotgun multiple times without knowing what or whom he was shooting.


Negligence in there somewhere, I bet
You call that negligence? It all sounds a bit deliberate to me. But then again I do not live in your country.
wings folded is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 18:59
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 57
Posts: 664
Maybe.

The circling back part seems to negate his self-defense.

However, firing a shotgun on/in his own property at an intruder might counter that negation.

Discharging a firearm without knowing at what/whom he was shooting seems (emphasis seems as I don't know Montana law on firearms discharge) negligent to me.
brickhistory is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 19:10
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: south of Cirencester, north of Lyneham
Age: 74
Posts: 1,256
Brick quoted :

Washington Mother Shoots Home Intruder To Save Children On Thanksgiving

Firstly, good for her. it appears she only shot him once, which is a pity - all 6 bullets should have been used. Secondly, in capturing a dangerous criminal, the state should have paid for the bullet.....

Compare with ( and I don't have the link) the case last week of the sentencing of four Polish guys who forced their way into a house in London, severely beat the owner such that he may lose sight in one eye, tied his wife with duct tape to a chair and demanded money. Fortunately, his daughter and her boy friend were able to lock themselves in her bedroom and called the police. Being a fluffy minded liberal, I would like them to have had the capability of shooting all four of the perps, who had, what is to my mind, derisory sentences - nothing less than a minimum of 50 years is, to my mind, called for.
radeng is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 19:19
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Confoederatio Helvetica
Age: 66
Posts: 2,847
Aren't we making a big assumption that the 17 year old was trespassing? No one, not even his friend, knows what his thinking was. Perhaps he just wanted to be a good neighbour and to secure the open garage. Perhaps not.

And we will never know, will we?
ExXB is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2014, 19:28
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 57
Posts: 664
Wow.

From your own post (#34) in this thread.

Trial begins Monday for Missoula man who fatally shot exchange student


Dede’s friend, an Ecuadorian exchange student named Robby Pazmino, told police they had participated in an activity called “garage hopping” before.


“Garage-hopping” is illegal. Teenagers enter garages looking for alcohol or
other substances.

Pazmino, who was with Dede the night of the shooting, said on several
occasions prior to April 27 they had stayed in the car while their friends
entered other open or partially open garages.

On this particular night, Pazmino and Dede were walking down the street, when Dede wordlessly slipped into Kaarma’s open garage. Pazmino told police that while he stood waiting for his friend to return, he heard an unfamiliar voice say, “I see you there.”

He ran away after hearing the first shot.
brickhistory is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.