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A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it?

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A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it?

Old 30th Oct 2014, 01:12
  #541 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
You'd like to get rid of the 2nd amendment.....
It is not something I really care about, it is just like any extract from any of the other sacred documents, Torah, Bible, Koran.

The words say something and the meaning may be clear but revisionists argue they mean something else, that may or may not be significant depending upon on what they were worth in the first place!
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 01:13
  #542 (permalink)  

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So John, guess then that you'd have no problem if Socialism and any form of it was banned in New Zealand?

That cannot happen in the United States due to that document you mock.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 01:14
  #543 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly, so why should I, or anyone else, pay the slightest heed to sacred documents and as argument for or against anything?
What you choose to follow is your own business, what the consequence to those decisions are is wide ranging.

I choose to follow the laws of the country I live in. There are many reasons I do that, even though I may not agree with each and every one of them.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 01:33
  #544 (permalink)  
 
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John,

You are the revisionist regarding the Second Amendment. If it was meant your way, it would have not been written that way. It would have said:

"the right to keep and bear arms for those serving in a well regulated militia shall not be infringed". It doesn't say that, does it?

GF
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 01:58
  #545 (permalink)  
 
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GF, it does say "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," but you seem to have ignored that part of it.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 02:05
  #546 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by con-pilot
So John, guess then that you'd have no problem if Socialism and any form of it was banned in New Zealand?
Hardly likely as NZ is one of the most socialist countries in this world.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 02:11
  #547 (permalink)  
 
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Are you embracing that or simply acknowledging it?
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 02:27
  #548 (permalink)  
 
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This thread would be shorter than 29 pages if we could fix certain things in the mind of certain contributors.

1. The meaning of the 2nd Amendment was recently greatly clarified by the US Supreme Court. Subsequently any opinions about its validity or interpretation are mute so nobody is interested in your opinions or your suggestions.

2. If you can't vote in the US nobody is really interested in your opinions and even if they were your opinions would make no difference.

3. The 2nd Amendment could be replaced by a further amendment but presently it will not happen.
While there are often wide partisan differences of opinion on gun-related issues, even 54% of Democrats agree with 75% of Republicans and 68% of those not affiliated with either major party that the right to own a gun is to ensure such freedom.
4. Americans do not want to give up their guns and criticism from Europe is likely to annoy them and harden their opinion.

.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 03:06
  #549 (permalink)  
 
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John,

Neither the SCOTUS nor I missed the PREFATORY clause that does not condition the "right of the people......"

GF
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 07:37
  #550 (permalink)  
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The meaning of the 2nd Amendment was recently greatly clarified by the US Supreme Court.
Absolutely, but that "clarification" can change.
If you can't vote in the US nobody is really interested in your opinions and even if they were your opinions would make no difference.
We know. That doesn't mean we can't talk about it. This comes across as an attempt to shut those who you (not you specifically) do not agree with up.
The 2nd Amendment could be replaced by a further amendment but presently it will not happen.
No issues there, but I think the reinterpretation mentioned above is more likely.
Americans do not want to give up their guns and criticism from Europe is likely to annoy them and harden their opinion.
Not wanting to give up their guns true of the Americans here, but there certainly are Americans who do want to give up their guns but want everyone to as well. If criticism annoys and hardens opinion then it's not exactly a healthy attitude to bring to a discussion forum. It also makes the position look weak: if it were strong it could be argued on its merits rather than simply being told "you don't have a vote so shut up". That said, some have made sound arguments, I'm simply pointing out that the attitude doesn't help.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 08:59
  #551 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst all the facts are far from clear and based on the report as written you would have to ask if mandatory training prior to buying might have made the outcome here and in the almost 17,000 other accidental shooting incidents a little different.

BBC News - Ex-baseball star Jose Canseco accidentally shoots finger
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 09:54
  #552 (permalink)  
 
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Pedant alert!!!!!

I really wish people would learn to spell different words that sound the same.....getting it wrong can totally alter the meaning of what is written......Perhaps that's what happened with the writers of the American Constitution.

@ BOING said
Subsequently any opinions about its validity or interpretation are mute so nobody is interested in your opinions or your suggestions.
So, , those opinions are silent? incapable of making noise? incapable of speech?

Or did he mean MOOT -questionable? contentious? open to interpretation?

*Pedant mode off*
Personally, I don't give a stuff what the Septics do on their own turf.
I think it's pretty reasonable to let them have guns if they want....they all know the rules, if they don't like it, they can emigrate to a place like Aus...where the Government will suddenly decide to steal and destroy your rifles or the UK, where the government will do the same with handguns...... Apart from alienating a proportion of the electorate, it's totally ineffective, just like the drugs laws. plenty of handguns in the UK, but the ******** politicians think we'll swallow their "protection" afforded by the law which is toothless.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 11:20
  #553 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by PTT View Post
Not wanting to give up their guns true of the Americans here, but there certainly are Americans who do want to give up their guns but want everyone to as well.
They are free to guve them up any time. They will have to wait for hell to freeze over before the other group gives up theirs.

Choice thing, you know.
 
Old 30th Oct 2014, 11:22
  #554 (permalink)  
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They will have to wait for hell to freeze over
Or the USSC to change its interpretation of the 2nd.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 11:49
  #555 (permalink)  
 
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bcgallacher wrote:

It is called democracy when minority interests can be subjugated to the wishes of the majority - anything else leads to dictatorships or anarchy
Which is why the United States is not a democracy but a Republic. Well, it used to be anyway.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 11:51
  #556 (permalink)  
 
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John Hill wrote:

Right from the very beginning, at least back as far as July 4th 1776, Americans have been writing their sacred documents to be later corrupted in an attempt to have them mean something else or even totally ignored.

There are sacred verses and phrases that although having clear meaning are later used in arguments to mean something else.

The "Second Amendment" is just one example.
BULLSHIT. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison and a few other founders were quite explicit about what the meaning of the 2nd amendment is. You just have to know where to look for these definitions. I have done so. You obviously have not.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 12:01
  #557 (permalink)  
 
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BCG: re. foxhunting
a humane method such as shooting
Using what precisely? Oh, yeah; guns.

BOING: criticism from some Europeans, not all.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 12:04
  #558 (permalink)  
 
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You need not get your blood pressure up RG, some here are simply regurgitating talking points from the left simply for emotive purposes. Likely the poster had to look up half the words.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 12:11
  #559 (permalink)  
 
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WC:

Nah, my blood pressure is fine. I just get tired of certain people insinuating on what we as Americans should do. I thought we settled all that a couple of hundred odd years ago when they were shown the exit door. Obviously the exit door didn't slam 'em in the ass hard enough.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 12:20
  #560 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rgbrock1 View Post
I just get tired of certain people insinuating on what we as Americans should do.

In the politest possible terms at the ripe old age of almost 57 I have yet to meet a person who knew everything about everything or did not benefit from a bit of well intentioned advice now and again.


Probably the other main and very relevant point worth mentioning is that it's not just Non Americans who think the current gun laws are not fit for purpose.


I seem to recall from a previous thread that about 50% of US homes are gun free, if that's the case at what point do you think there will be a sufficient majority of folks in favour of reform.......
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