Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it?

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it?

Old 2nd Nov 2015, 12:55
  #2741 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Great White North
Posts: 185
Perhaps not well asked on my part...

Kent State is just one event, a big one, where the deterrent factor of a well armed populace did not have any effect on the actions of the authorities that day. There are many smaller more current events that are causing a great deal of social unrest in the last few years I could also use, such as the South Carolina shooting of a man running away from a police officer. The threat of a well armed public had no bearing on the officers actions. I just don't see the deterrent factor that was referred in effect.

In fact, a bunch of well armed and organized citizens do not pose much of a deterrent to a heavily armed authority with tanks, artillery, rockets, helicopters and jets... not to mention the satellite and intelligence gathering networks the government has at it's disposal.
Mostly Harmless is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2015, 14:04
  #2742 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 5,594
Originally Posted by Mostly Harmless View Post
Perhaps not well asked on my part...
Yeah. That's about the size of it.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2015, 14:12
  #2743 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: E.Wash State
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Mostly Harmless View Post
In fact, a bunch of well armed and organized citizens do not pose much of a deterrent to a heavily armed authority with tanks, artillery, rockets, helicopters and jets... not to mention the satellite and intelligence gathering networks the government has at it's disposal.
Well considering that such a "rebellion" has not happened in a developed country under the circumstances we are discussing, your statement is just your opinion and nothing more.

My opinion is different: given the history of Kent State and its aftermath, I suspect that military people would likely not follow orders to regularly fire on their own people, though surely incidents would occur.

And should there be such clashes, the ability of regular armed citizens to create havoc among said military, despite their "rockets, helicopters and jets" should not be underestimated. A few raggy looking fellows in far-off countries were pretty successful at this, and organized and educated citizens would fare much better, as they clearly understood their opponents.
obgraham is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2015, 15:10
  #2744 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 243
One thing I'd like to point out is during the argument of "How can you fight against tanks and bombers?" the common rebuttal is "but Iraq and Afghanistan". In the case of Iraq at least, the other guys were well supplied with new guns and worse cutting edge antitank weapons. So that's not really a good example.
FakePilot is online now  
Old 2nd Nov 2015, 18:29
  #2745 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: E.Wash State
Posts: 0
So Fakepilot, do you really think that tank crews and bomber crews would regularly attack their own people?

I rather think that if somehow the US military were to get involved in supressing US citizens, it would be more like Kent State, possibly on a larger scale: rifles, etc. And believe me the citizens would shoot back. It would not be tidy for either side.
obgraham is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2015, 20:31
  #2746 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 243
obgraham,

I'm just talking about pro-gun nutters using the excuse that people armed with small arms were able to tackle the US military. Not really.

However the overall point still stands. 2nd amendment allows you to have and bear weapons to fight whoever needs it. In my mind that protection should extend to electronic warfare devices too.
FakePilot is online now  
Old 2nd Nov 2015, 21:28
  #2747 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 5,594
Originally Posted by FakePilot View Post
obgraham,

I'm just talking about pro-gun nutters using the excuse that people armed with small arms were able to tackle the US military. Not really.
Most officers are familiar with the Posse Comitatus act, and might be able to recognize an illegal order when they saw one.

Unlike a lot of banana republics, the military is not the prime agency for civil issues: the cops are.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 3rd Nov 2015, 17:21
  #2748 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Arlington, Tx. US
Posts: 610
Colorado Shooting

I was right it turns out to be a cauc gun nut. Worse is some one saw him before the shootings brandishing an AR-15. 9-11 said nothing could be done because of open carry. Three more dead to add to the NRA's collection.

If he had been non-Lilly white he would have been blown away in a second even if it turned out he was carrying a stick.

The Sultan
The Sultan is offline  
Old 3rd Nov 2015, 19:29
  #2749 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 243
Three more dead to add to the NRA's collection.
I don't think you really believe this.
FakePilot is online now  
Old 3rd Nov 2015, 19:54
  #2750 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: QLD - where drivers are yet to realise that the left lane goes to their destination too.
Posts: 2,338
That was 45 years ago, so that Kent State might not be applicable to the current state of affairs in the States
But Laws based on something that happened 250 years ago still are?
Traffic_Is_Er_Was is offline  
Old 3rd Nov 2015, 20:21
  #2751 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 5,594
Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was View Post
But Laws based on something that happened 250 years ago still are?
Rights, not laws, and I really wish more of you furriners would grasp that.
@Fake Pilot
If you wander over to Rotorheads, you'll find that same kind of trolling that you are seeing in that example by the same handle.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 3rd Nov 2015, 21:21
  #2752 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,433
Rights, not laws, and I really wish more of you furriners would grasp that.
"Rights" are whatever a society, from time to time and place to place, decides they are.

The "from time to time" bit suggests that they can change - and they do, eg Americans now have the right not to be a slave, which they didn't have not that long ago.

The "from place to place" bit suggests that they're not the same everywhere -and they aren't, eg Americans don't have the right not to be tortured by their government, but many people in other countries do.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2015, 00:08
  #2753 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: heathrow
Posts: 52
eg Americans now have the right not to be a slave, which they didn't have not that long ago.
When were any American people slaves?
747 jock is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2015, 13:35
  #2754 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Great White North
Posts: 185
Lonewolf_50
Yeah. That's about the size of it.
More than a bit dickish in your response.

your statement is just your opinion and nothing more.
You are correct... it is just opinion. Exactly like your statement. Hopefully none of us will ever find out who is correct and who is not.

I suspect that military people would likely not follow orders to regularly fire on their own people, though surely incidents would occur.
I've long held the this same belief. That when ordered to fire on family and neighbours, that the soldiers would not obey that order. Again, I hope we never get to test that theory.

So Fakepilot, do you really think that tank crews and bomber crews would regularly attack their own people?
Sadly, they do in many nations around the world. Even the US had a civil war... had there been tanks and bombers at the time, they would have been used. It was a war.

... using the excuse that people armed with small arms were able to tackle the US military. Not really.
I agree with you there.

In my mind that protection should extend to electronic warfare devices too.
That's an interesting thought and one that should see some open conversation.

Last edited by Mostly Harmless; 19th Nov 2015 at 21:20.
Mostly Harmless is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2015, 16:13
  #2755 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,960
I guess things must be pretty rough when the civil police have a medal called the "Combat Cross"

Birmingham police reconsider officer's medal after dash cam video released | AL.com
Hempy is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2015, 22:38
  #2756 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK/OZ
Posts: 1,722
https://www.rt.com/usa/321152-marshals-shooting-charged-louisiana/

Two freelance personnel employed to serve warrents opened fire on car.
An Autistic 6 year old was killed and his father is in critical condition.
No weapon was found in car.
Body cameras recorded the incident and the two guys gave been artested.

They were off duty policemen.
Why is it so imperative for US police to pull the trigger and kill compared to police in other western countries?

Is it purely the threat of guns on the street?
What are the figures for police shootings, how often do they get it wrong?
Why do they prosecute the laws of the land, even misdemeanours, when there is such a high level of percieved threat of very shadow hiding a gunman?

In most countries if the public are at risk then car chases are called off.
In the US errant drivers are harranged and god forbid you are depressed, drunk, deaf or autistic, if you dont follow police commands it is acceptable for the police to kill you if they thought you had a partucular item.
A gun.

There are other ways to catch the bad guys, just like its use in US diplomancy the application of a big stick rarely is a long term solution.

It is a horrible flaw in US society that will not go away.
It follows that the law of "upping the anti" will apply and if portable higher firepower weapons are invented, the degree of collateral damage will increase.
We have seen heavy caliber machine guns deployed at a US street protest!

Whilst new tech such as tasers have saved lives on one hand they are casually used on public for minor levels misbehaviour rather than negotiation.

Where does this end?
Inequality and disenfranchisement are the root cause.
Solve this and US citizens will not live in fear of their neighbour.

In the meantime, the strategy that "I'll get him before he gets me" will continue to be the last bad judgement call made by a otherwise law abiding citizen before the lives of two families are forever trashed, there is no turning back the bullet once the trigger is pulled...

Mickjoebill
mickjoebill is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2015, 04:29
  #2757 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Germany
Age: 72
Posts: 1,561
I'm sure that you have ....

"We have seen heavy caliber machine guns deployed at a US street protest!"

That would probably be the Browning M2 .50-caliber (12.7-mm.) heavy machine gun, I suppose, the weapon of choice for many US police departments despite obvious problems with property damage.

Then we have this: "Inequality and disenfranchisement are the root cause.
Solve this and US citizens will not live in fear of their neighbour." That's an amazing insight!

Inequality, well ... that's an unfortunate fact of life in a capitalist society, one I don't think we can fix right away, if ever. We had had a brief love affair with Fidel Castro, who advised a different approach, but when we saw the way Cuba has solved this pesky problem, well, we decided to stick with inequality, thanks very much!

This "disenfranchisement," though ... where do you see that as a big problem? Who is being "disenfranchised" and how, and how does this lead to gun violence? Is it that the disenfranchised are protesting and then being gunned down by police using M2 Browning "heavy caliber machine guns"? Please tell us more!
chuks is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2015, 08:44
  #2758 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Scotland
Age: 76
Posts: 452
Mickjoebill - you ask how many killed by US police - recent figures show over 1000 shot dead by US police per year. In a recent month 111 shot dead by police. This is more than the police force of the U.K. has killed in 100 years. Gun supporters are continually referring to US "freedom" - a couple of figures make one wonder. The US has 5% of the world population but 25% of the worlds prisoners,the police shoot dead over 1000 of the population per year,a strange kind of freedom. They say that their guns help to stop oppressive government,does not seem to have worked.
bcgallacher is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2015, 12:11
  #2759 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 4
The Great Hunger happened in Ireland between 1845 and 1852. That gave rise to the first great immigrant inflow into the USA of at least two million Irish peasants.
The USA has been destination point of home reference for refugees, wastrels and woebegones ever since.
But then we are told, and I have no reason to doubt it, that the USA has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prisoners locked up. So then, one might reasonably draw two conclusions?
1. Law enforcement in the USA is relatively efficient.
2. The US immigration vetting process has been a disaster.
There can be no doubt that the devisers of the second amendment were wise men who had in mind provision for the efficiency of the first of these two consequences while in no wise could they be blamed for failing to foretell the mishap of the second.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2015, 14:49
  #2760 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Scotland
Age: 76
Posts: 452
The efficient US police according to figures I have seen have a murder solution rate of 65%. The obviously inefficient British police are unable to match the killing abilities of the US police as some years they manage to shoot no-one.In spite of this they manage a murder clear up rate of 95%.
bcgallacher is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.