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A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it?

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A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it?

Old 25th May 2015, 21:25
  #2421 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
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For the fourth or fifth time, how would you legislate against stupid?

And we know gun bans don't work.
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Old 25th May 2015, 21:49
  #2422 (permalink)  
 
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It would appear you find the Lanza Conundrum a bit of an intellectual challenge
Hardly. The challenge is in resisting to the urge to respond to that lazy jab.

or would you like to share your thoughts on how the failings in that case might be addressed?
Not especially. Too many people today seem to believe they are imbued with the wisdom to decide which freedoms and liberties should be withdrawn from their fellow citizens based upon some nebulous undefined outcome they desire. Whatever it is, I guess they "feel" that the world will be a better place. (in their view at least) I consider that to be pure and unadulterated intellectual dishonesty of the highest order. Why one might believe they are blessed with that level of wisdom is between them and their favored shrink.

So no, I wouldn't care to be the one to decide how that baby is to be divided. I don't fancy myself as being some version of a King Solomon-like repository of infinite wisdom. However, were it my duty to decide, I'd intend to err on the side of liberty and personal responsibility. Along with that goes proportional consequences for poor decisions, negligence and ill-intent. Not a perfect solution by any means. However I think it's a superior choice when compared to the results of ceding these responsibilities to self-appointed arbiters of the communal good who will decide what is "best" for us.

That's the problem with representative government. But it's been noted before by someone that the US system is the worst system in history... Except for all the others! In any case, it is what it is. Now how about solving some of your own country's problems? Surely you have all the answers. Don't you?

westhawk
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Old 25th May 2015, 22:00
  #2423 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Chips View Post
For the fourth or fifth time, how would you legislate against stupid?

And we know gun bans don't work.
Using your logic why do we have a drink drive law, surely as a society we can all be trusted to make sensible decision and not drink and drive?

As regards gun bans not working over there in the UK it seems to be working fine, it's no longer possible to be killed with a legally held handgun, excluding the one or two varieties not banned post Dunblane.
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Old 25th May 2015, 22:01
  #2424 (permalink)  
 
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Westhawk,

If I read your post correctly you have not a single idea as to how to stop the next Sandy Hook?
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Old 26th May 2015, 02:16
  #2425 (permalink)  
 
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Seldomfitforpurpose
If I read your post correctly you have not a single idea as to how to stop the next Sandy Hook?
One night 25 years ago Julio Gonzalez murdered 87 people in the Bronx using $1 worth of gasoline he purchased at a nearby gas station because he couldn't find a gun. He killed more people than the Sandy Hook (26), Columbine (13), Aurora theater (12), and Virginia Tech (32) shootings combined (85). Undoubtedly, those of you so concerned about gun deaths in the U.S. were equally overcome with anguish as to the method and ease of this mass murder and therefore have formed many opinions on how to change U.S. law so that nobody can purchase highly-volatile petrol so anonymously and conveniently.

And I do mean conveniently. In the U.S. there are approximately 165,000 locations that sell incredibly super-dangerous gasoline to the public! Furthermore, when doing so there are absolutely no forms to be filed with either the Feds or the State, no waiting period, no ID required, no background checks, and no proof of "need" i.e. vehicle, lawnmower, boat, or chainsaw ownership necessary. There is a loose age-limit in some States that a person must be at least driver's permit age (around 16) to pump gas by themselves, but woe to any that don't check that same person's ID if they want to buy tobacco (must prove 18 or 19) or alcohol (21). Practically anyone who looks old enough to have a part time job after school cutting grass can rock-up to a gas station on foot carrying a gasoline container (which can be purchased anonymously practically anywhere, even at the service station itself!) and for an insanely small amount money relative to the amount of destruction it can cause, buy themselves a gallon or two of this Liquid Death.

I'd like to hear your ideas on how to prevent the next Happy Land please.

Last edited by PukinDog; 26th May 2015 at 03:40.
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Old 26th May 2015, 02:31
  #2426 (permalink)  
 
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Spend a day doing a little bit of gardening and the topic has moved on two pages!

SFFP,
Your comment about tweaking the Constitution to cater for your following suggestions is totally ridiculous.

Solutions seem to be she is ordered either to remove the guns from her home and store them at the gun club or remove the mentally ill child from the home.
The solutions you offer are certainly not of Constitutional magnitude and, as others have pointed out, are totally impractical in any case because they would be attached with other serious constitutional considerations.

The Constitution, of course, can be amended, the change we refer to as the "Second Amendment" is a result of this process. This should encourage you to wonder why not even the most anti-gun politicians or groups do not try to follow this route. The answer is that there is no support for such an amendment in the population so no politician or group is going to push the idea only to look stupid when their attempt fails. The overall reality is that you are "peeing against the wind" - now having got wet most people would accept logic and face in a different direction but I doubt you will do this.

.
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Old 26th May 2015, 03:58
  #2427 (permalink)  
 
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If I read your post correctly you have not a single idea as to how to stop the next Sandy Hook?
More vigilance and a greater societal emphasis on personal responsibility for one's own actions. But hey, that's not a new law and doesn't remove any liberties from responsible people. Therefore, to the self-appointed intelligentsia, it's no solution at all.

If the laws already on the books were followed and supported by society, we wouldn't be discussing this. Neither new laws nor more Dobermans to enforce them will prevent the insane or ill-intentioned from doing mayhem. More focused vigilance and a generally heightened sense of responsibility across society might help. Sure, we have laws on our books restricting the scope of some of our liberties already. Adding more is not the answer. Give 'em an inch and they'll see it as license to take a mile.

Anyway, that's the only point I have to make.

westhawk

What is needed is a new emphasis on personal responsibility.
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Old 26th May 2015, 04:53
  #2428 (permalink)  
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One night 25 years ago Julio Gonzalez murdered 87 people in the Bronx using $1 worth of gasoline he purchased at a nearby gas station because he couldn't find a gun

That was a wonderful polemical post.

Sadly, in your haste to remind the rest of the world as to why we should not dare to criticise the American way of life and culture, notably the prevalence of weapons, you seem to have missed one rather inconvenient little point.

Could you therefore, please show further evidence as to how many other deaths have subsequently been caused in the same manner as you chose to exemplify in contrast to, say, the annual death toll caused by weapons.
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Old 26th May 2015, 07:42
  #2429 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BOING View Post
Spend a day doing a little bit of gardening and the topic has moved on two pages!

SFFP,
Your comment about tweaking the Constitution to cater for your following suggestions is totally ridiculous.



The solutions you offer are certainly not of Constitutional magnitude and, as others have pointed out, are totally impractical in any case because they would be attached with other serious constitutional considerations.

The Constitution, of course, can be amended, the change we refer to as the "Second Amendment" is a result of this process. This should encourage you to wonder why not even the most anti-gun politicians or groups do not try to follow this route. The answer is that there is no support for such an amendment in the population so no politician or group is going to push the idea only to look stupid when their attempt fails. The overall reality is that you are "peeing against the wind" - now having got wet most people would accept logic and face in a different direction but I doubt you will do this.

.
A recent U.S. Poster in here suggested it was illegal to own a gun in certain parts of Chicago, how does that work if it's unconstitutional?
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Old 26th May 2015, 07:43
  #2430 (permalink)  
 
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Pukin Dog off at a tangent as usual - the relevance of arson to gun crime is beyond me. Arson does not seem to be responsible for 30,000 deaths a year including about 12000 homicides. Just as an aside 2015 is the year that gunshot deaths will overtake automobile accident deaths. That is really something for an a developed country to take pride in.
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Old 26th May 2015, 10:35
  #2431 (permalink)  
 
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Hempy thank you for the Jim Jefferies link - just brilliant. He has a new fan
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Old 26th May 2015, 13:06
  #2432 (permalink)  
 
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The rationale for the 2nd Amendment, that being protection against a tyrannical government, is so out of date and paranoid now as to be farcical. Americans have guns because other Americans have guns. The thing they are afraid of is not their government, but each other. If they chose to live in a society where their children have to enter school via a metal detector, where you feel you have to be armed to walk safely down the street or sleep in your bed at night, then that's their choice. Just because I and pretty much the other almost 7 billion people in the world think it's absurd isn't going to change anything. I'm just glad I don't live in such a society.
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Old 26th May 2015, 13:14
  #2433 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was View Post
. The thing they are afraid of is not their government, but each other.
The most dangerous beast in the forest is the one that walks upright.
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Old 26th May 2015, 13:25
  #2434 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
The most dangerous beast in the forest is the one that walks upright.
Not much sense in allowing the beast to own a gun then, seems to me to it makes the danger even more so.........

Last edited by Seldomfitforpurpose; 26th May 2015 at 13:42.
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Old 26th May 2015, 13:34
  #2435 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
Not much sense in giving the beast a gun then, seems to me to it makes the danger even more so.........
Where do you get "giving" from?
I am surprised at how people spin things into their own fantasies, but maybe I shouldn't be.
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Old 26th May 2015, 13:43
  #2436 (permalink)  
 
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There you go, it's been un spun..........not that it ever was spun in the first place
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Old 26th May 2015, 14:33
  #2437 (permalink)  
 
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The statistics have been sliced, diced and analyzed until they are beyond question.

American legal tradition and the resulting laws have been explained to the level of a basic college course.

The political ramifications of gun control have been discussed.

The will of the majority of people of the United States has been made clear.

And still the anti-gun people on this thread act as though they have never read any of the previous posts at all. We are treated to a continuous, mindless, regurgitation of emotionally based pseudo facts and trite arguments from people whose total knowledge of the subject is derived from sensationalist news reports and like minded anti groups.

"There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See"

These people are very willing to wax loud and long about the faults of the US but not one of them can propose an effective solution to the problems they perceive (or imagine). Instead, all that they can do is whine about a problem that does not effect them and which is actually none of their business. If they think the situation in the US is as bad as they claim the best solution for them is the stay away and the US will be better for this choice.

I really get the feeling that the people who constitute the anti group in this thread are a bunch of disappointed 60's ex-hippies making their last grasp at relevance. The problem with the 60's in the West was that the generation failed to appreciate that although the West was in the 60's a lot of the rest of the World was still in 1600. Similarly, the old 60's crowd now fails to see that the rest of the World is now in 2015. If only the World's problems were as easily solved as these armchair fantasy legislators think.

.
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Old 26th May 2015, 15:04
  #2438 (permalink)  
 
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You have to love the childish mentality that arrives at the conclusion that any one with a different view point is anti gun and an ageing hippy

I spent 38 happy years in the Air Force, played with a range of weapons, fired from the air and on the ground, taught air to ground gunnery so I am certainly not anti gun. Some of the best fun I ever had involved weapon training and weapon firing and at 57 I am way too young to have ever been a hippy.

The main thing instilled in me during that time was there is a right way and a wrong way to do guns. I suspect what really yanks the chain of many on here is the fact that in oh so many cases each and every day in the supposedly greatest nation on Earth 'stoopid is as stoopid does' happens with a gun on numerous occasions.

I cite the Lanza case as a classic example of how not to do guns yet rather than acknowledging the fact and thinking of ways to stop that craziness happening again you are so scared of a piece of 200 year old scribble you simply bury your heads in the sand.

Smart enough to put a man on the moon but to dumb to be able to stop the next Lanza.
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Old 26th May 2015, 15:08
  #2439 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
I spent 38 happy years in the Air Force, played with a range of weapons, .
At least we understand where your attitude on firearms comes from ... viewing them as toys.
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Old 26th May 2015, 15:12
  #2440 (permalink)  
 
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I cite the Lanza case as a classic example of how not to do guns yet rather than acknowledging the fact and thinking of ways to stop that craziness happening again you are so scared of a piece of 200 year old scribble you simply bury your heads in the sand.
STILL waiting to hear how you would phrase the law to stop the Mrs Lanza's from owning guns. I've only asked you like six times
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