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Meanwhile .. back in the Good 'ol NK ....

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Meanwhile .. back in the Good 'ol NK ....

Old 25th Sep 2017, 03:37
  #1901 (permalink)  
 
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“….where one of the players is hell bent on threatening, at every opportunity, to all and sundry, that he will destroy…..”

No, both parties have made these threats in the past several decades with the clearest most direct threat coming recently from the leader of the US.

North Korea leadership has subtly signaled several times in the past that they are willing to consider compromise but Washington will have none of it. Such compromise and possible resolution does not fit the western agenda.

“So those aren't nukes the norks have been setting off? Just what are they then?”

You may want to re read my post; I did not imply that they do not have nuclear weapons. However there is certainly ZERO evidence that North Korea has successfully test flown a missile with range, accuracy and payload capability to strike any target beyond the sea of Japan.

More importantly, the reason we are still alive today is the doctrine of MAD, although an indictment on the human race, was an effective balance that prevented one nation from acting against the other. Recall at the time the Russians were labeled by western leaders as “crazy”, “mad” and “insane” much the same way that the leader of North Korea is labeled today however neither nation was foolish enough to launch nuclear weapons.

Why was such a doctrine valid then but is deemed unwise now? What has North Korea done to preclude them using nuclear weapons as a deterrent against a nation that has literally threatened to “destroy” them?

“North Korean threats to burn cities and conducting nuke tests and firing rockets to splash down in other countries' waters didn't begin when Trump came into office.”

No it didn’t and it should not be a debate that is turned into a pro/anti Trump issue. Its been simmering for decades and Trump is simply the king on the throne at a time when the powers that be need the volume turned up in the region. This escalation would still be occurring, albeit with slightly more nuanced tones had HRC been elected.

“Do you believe that China wants to face a fully re-armed Japan again?”

Japan will do precisely what the US instruct them to do and have done since 1945.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 05:23
  #1902 (permalink)  
 
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North Korea leadership has subtly signaled several times in the past that they are willing to consider compromise
Do provide examples of the fat Wun offering to compromise. They've not so subtly signaled several times that nukes are off the table. That given, compromise on the amount of UN aid expected, the color of the napkins at the next meeting, what exactly?


As to Japan, you've clearly not been following the discourse of late. Do some light reading and check back in.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 14:06
  #1903 (permalink)  
 
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Well, someone is not averse to trying to benefit from the situation...
Japan's PM Shinzo Abe calls snap election - BBC News
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 15:07
  #1904 (permalink)  
 
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Drinks - check
Nibbles - check
Seatbelt - tightened

It's started

North Korea says it will shoot down US bombers after declaration of war | Metro News
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 15:44
  #1905 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oicur12.again View Post
“….where one of the players is hell bent on threatening, at every opportunity, to all and sundry, that he will destroy…..”

No, both parties have made these threats in the past several decades with the clearest most direct threat coming recently from the leader of the US.

More importantly, the reason we are still alive today is the doctrine of MAD, although an indictment on the human race, was an effective balance that prevented one nation from acting against the other. Recall at the time the Russians were labeled by western leaders as “crazy”, “mad” and “insane” much the same way that the leader of North Korea is labeled today however neither nation was foolish enough to launch nuclear weapons.

Why was such a doctrine valid then but is deemed unwise now? What has North Korea done to preclude them using nuclear weapons as a deterrent against a nation that has literally threatened to “destroy” them?
If you have no conception that "deterrence" against further NK aggression that began in 1950 with it's invasion of the South and during the subsequent state of war between the two for 67 years has been maintained by conventional forces along the DMZ with China and the U.S. being the sole possessors nuclear capability in the region, then I suppose that's why you can't comprehend that NK acquiring nukes isn't an example of MAD, it's a gross destabilization of MAD-based deterrence.

Even when the Soviets emplaced missiles in Cuba, they weren't launching them over U.S. territory like the Norks have been doing over Japan, and they certainly weren't about to give control of them to Cubans.

Nothing precludes North Korea from acquiring nuclear weapons, they have them. They broke the non-Nuclearization Treaty they signed in 1992 and withdrew from the NPT 10 years later. In the meantime they were accepting aid from the U.S., SK, and others in return for giving up their nuclear weapon ambitions, but they didn't. Achieving nuclear capability has been their aim since before the 1980s when grandpa was threatening to burn Los Angeles, but he had no capability. The threats continued with his father, but he had no capability either. The North has never been accepting of the deterrence already in place since 1953 except as a staying action to achieve their real aim, and now Fat Boy Grandson has ramped-up the threats with threatening actions against his neighbors because that aim has been achieved. He has the capability.

When you're the 3rd generation of hand-me-down dictatorship in a Cult-of-Personality Stalinist regime that kills off any oppositions or disappears them and their families into the Gulags, I guess one is inclined to carry-on what Daddy told you do do as started by Grandpa who began the war in the first place, killing anyone who stands in your way or fails you.

So be it, they joined the nuclear Party even though they knew it would be destabilizing to the extreme. They want to be seen as a menacing Big Player in their own right, a force for not just SK reckon with, but the region and world as well. He joined the Party, but his actions are those of an obnoxious, aggressive drunk who can't handle his first beers and instead of merely trying to punch someone and ushered out he's walked in with a loaded rifle and is waving it around in faces. Nobody having it waved at them will tolerate it for long before putting him down for good. You can't trust a crazy, aggressive drunk and you can't trust nuclear-armed, 3rd generation Cult of Personality dictator of a dynasty that has fed off a state of war they're pursued for 7 decades.

At your age, you certainly never lived during a time people were calling Soviet leaders "crazy", "insane", etc etc. Nor were Soviet leaders sounding or acting like Fat Boy Grandson.

Japan will do precisely what the US instruct them to do and have done since 1945.
Japan will listen to the U.S. as long as the U.S. fulfills it's obligations for Japan's defense. If the U.S. can't or won't, and Japan is threatened by a loose cannon aiming nukes at them, Japan will do what they think is necessary for survival to protect itself from it's neighbors who hate them.

It's supremely naive to believe Japan will sit and do nothing to defend itself if defense isn't provided in reality, no matter what the U.S. "instructs them to do". Nobody has threatened Japan since 1945 the way they are being threatened now. I don't think that has sunk in for you yet.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 15:54
  #1906 (permalink)  
 
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You can't trust a crazy, aggressive drunk and you can't trust nuclear-armed, 3rd generation Cult of Personality dictator of a dynasty that has fed off a state of war they're pursued for 7 decades.
Wow!

Do you realise what you just said there?

Any good at pattern recognition? Recognise symmetry when you see it? Or not?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 16:06
  #1907 (permalink)  
 
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North Korea says it will shoot down US bombers after declaration of war | Metro News
Notice the gun carrier with the red wheels. That's the one with the radio.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 16:22
  #1908 (permalink)  
 
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The big problem with all this is the Seoul Inchon region and its 50% of the RoK population. The idiot in PY can flatten half of it in hours with conventional weapons let alone nukes and if the Yanks nuke Pyong Yang they are effectively hitting Seoul because in nuclear terms its in the same street.

A real dilemma and just when we have a complete idiot as US president who demeans that great office by indulging in a childish bout of name calling with his NK opposite over twitter just like two twelve year old girls would do.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 16:24
  #1909 (permalink)  
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Should we laugh, cry, or take cover?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 16:35
  #1910 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
Should we laugh, cry, or take cover?
Whatever you do, don't panic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR0lOtdvqyg
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 16:45
  #1911 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cazalet33 View Post
Wow!

Do you realise what you just said there?

Any good at pattern recognition? Recognise symmetry when you see it? Or not?
You only imagine symmetry because you cherry pick a sentence and apply your own context. Do you have a problem reading an entire paragraph, comprehending the connection between one sentence and the next? That's why they're written and contained in the same paragraph.

Which makes we wonder, is your entire world view as disjointed and unfocused?

Anyone can pick "symmetry" out of the sky. For instance, "Fat Boy" could just be a conjunction of Fat Man and Little Boy meaning there's already a small, 10-kiloton package of sunshine somewhere with his name on it, destined to be delivered to his doorstep.

Last edited by PukinDog; 25th Sep 2017 at 17:36.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 16:48
  #1912 (permalink)  
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I was 18 and had just started university in October 1962.

It seemed serious . . .
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 17:08
  #1913 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
I was 18 and had just started university in October 1962.

It seemed serious . . .
Che Guevara was a big fan of North Korea, Kim Il Sung and China's Mao, advocated the nuking of American cities, and having Cuban control over nuclear weapons in Cuba.

This situation is like that October of 1962, except while the Soviets weren't stupid enough to give a fanatic like Guevara control of nuclear weapons then or launch a nuclear strike on his say-so as he urged them to do, now there's someone of similar mindset who does have nukes and has them without China needing to supply or control them.

Warm fuzzies abound

Last edited by PukinDog; 25th Sep 2017 at 17:37.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 18:20
  #1914 (permalink)  
 
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Kims lies continue.
North Korea’s foreign minister has said that President Donald Trump has declared war on the country and Pyongyang has the right to shoot down US strategic bombers.
But that's simply a lie. The US has not declared war on anyone, to include Korea back in 1950. (Mind you, that hasn't stopped a variety of presidents from using armed forces to do stuff ... )


I'll get some more popcorn. The bullshit exchange continues.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 18:32
  #1915 (permalink)  
 
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Seeing as they've got previous for shooting down reconnaissance aircraft I'd have thought the US would take this threat seriously. F-22 escorts now then ?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 18:52
  #1916 (permalink)  
 
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I have a feeling that NK may be getting a bit desperate. They've tried the thermonuclear weapon threat, they've tried lobbing inert missiles over the top of Japan into the Pacific, and they've made what I think is an empty threat to detonate a nuke over the Pacific (something I'm not convinced they can do, at least not with the missiles and probable warhead capability they have.

I have a feeling that they may well have problems at their underground nuclear test site, too. There was the secondary shock after the last test, plus another one more recently, which may indicate that they have some serious geological problems, perhaps serious enough to have set their test programme back a fair bit.

Lashing out at some rhetoric from POTUS, plus a flight in international air space of some US bombers, and calling them a "declaration of war" may well be just frustration that things aren't going as NK planned.

I'm coming around to the view that Kim Jong-un may well have really thought that he could blackmail the rest of the world into treating NK as a force to be reckoned with. He may well have got the idea for this from looking at the way Putin has brought Russia back as a force to be reckoned with, largely by threats, covert assassinations and sheer force of character. Sadly for Kim Jong-un, he has neither the intellect or resources available to come close to achieving what Putin has achieved.

The worrying loose cannon, in my view, isn't Kim Jong-un, but POTUS, mainly because Kim Jong-un is predictable, POTUS isn't.............
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 18:57
  #1917 (permalink)  
 
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If the Americans want to send a small message to Fatty it would be simple and not so subtle.
Send up a couple more Lancers and let's see if they are messed with...they know that there will be a full force of US fighters up there to meet them and those NK pilots will not be returning home.

Secondly, the NK has a lot of old diesel subs, that the US could make disappear in a matter of minutes.
The Yanks could just say it wasn't us mate.

After all, NK increased tensions by taking out 2 missile defence ships with a couple of freighters.
Chess pieces are being moved around the board at the moment, with NK having very few options and the US preparing for checkmate.

I wouldn't be buying Fatty a Christmas card just yet.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:26
  #1918 (permalink)  
 
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Saw an interesting tidbit in the news today, not sure how well the poll tests public feeling. The tidbit suggests that 2 of 3 Americans do not want a pre-emptive war in North Korea. This got me scratching my head. What are that other third thinking?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:27
  #1919 (permalink)  
 
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as oicur12.again said

.."albeit with slightly more nuanced tones had HRC been elected. "..

YEP- I'm sure a different color reset button would have solved all the problems- if only NK contributed a few hundred milion $ to the foundation, all would be well . .

Obviously in an alternate universe ...
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 19:44
  #1920 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The worrying loose cannon, in my view, isn't Kim Jong-un, but POTUS, mainly because Kim Jong-un is predictable, POTUS isn't.............
Since 1950 and 1951 there hasn't been anything unpredictable about what the U.S. response will be to an attack on SK or Japan, let alone the U.S. UNSC resolutions, sanctions, and condemnation in response to Fat Boy's actions thus far are predictable. Attempting to get China to arm-twist NK predictable. Shoring up defenses, adding THAAD system in Japan, and routine shows of force in response to the threats and missile launches are predictable.

How does the person showing those predictable responses rate "loose cannon unpredictability" status, while the Hermit Kingdom nutjob who has destabilized the entire region and threatened it's neighbors for no good reason rates predictability and is nothing to worry about?

Is it because he's not threatening to turn London to ashes or launching missiles over the UK? The people of Sapporo waking to civil defense announcements would most likely disagree with your assessment on who the worrying loose cannon is, and since you're sitting way out there on the sidelines while making it I don't see why their opinion wouldn't be worth a tonne more than yours.

Perhaps you should lend your crystal ball services to the State Department, since you have Fat Boy all figured out?
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