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Here we go again, Iran this time.

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Here we go again, Iran this time.

Old 26th Nov 2013, 11:40
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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It is being said that Mrs Ecclestone has been under Mr Blair and Mr Ecclestone is not happy.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 12:09
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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racedo wrote:

Did not the Founding Fathers do something similar ?

Would you advocate special forces hitting and running or standing still for a battle ?
No, the founding fathers did not do something like that. Nor do any member of the Continental Army. (You know, that bunch of rag bag peasants who kicked your country's ass both sides of Sunday and then tossed you out?)

Special Forces take the battle to the enemy and do not ever turn and flee. And do not leave the theater of battle until the enemy has been defeated. Very simple fact.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 12:17
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Very simple fact.
S'funny, I recall a very recent operation in Somalia where the Navy SEALs beat a rather hasty retreat in the face of some stiff opposition. Or was that a "tactical pause"?
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 12:19
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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It is being said that Mrs Ecclestone has been under Mr Blair and Mr Ecclestone is not happy.
Wasn't there also some allegations about him "consorting" with Mr Murdoch's wife? Digger ain't gonna be too happy about that.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 12:20
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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'Tis true, dead pan, 'tis true. And one of the reasons why the SEALs had to beat feet the other way is because they neglected to take along a platoon or two of U.S. Army Rangers.

The SEAL's will learn some day. Maybe.

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Old 26th Nov 2013, 12:59
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of SF work is intel so running away is not a bad thing. Tests the response and you get to make it home with first hand accounts. The real trick is not to be spotted in the first place and be halfway home by the time it goes wahoonie shaped for the enemy, ie, hit and run.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 13:08
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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And wisdom tells you that if your force of 6 men is outnumbered 30:1 then it might indeed be a good idea to beat feet out of the AO.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 13:10
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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30:1
What a wiener - our SAS boys laugh in face of those odds
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 13:26
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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The vast majority of Iraqi forces, insurgents et al. were, and still are, cowardly. They do not stand and fight. [etc etc]
What force from any country "stands and fights" against overwhelming, equal or even inferior military force? We operated to a 3:1 rule...unless things were that much in favour - withdraw. The US, UK and their allies operate to similar arrangements at this very moment, and all forces willingly back off and call in "un-cowardly" JDAMs or indirect fire when under effective fire.

Put aside the macho willy waving. You can say a lot of things about insurgents. But cowardly wouldn't be one of them (as a general rule).
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 13:52
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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And wisdom tells you that if your force of 6 men is outnumbered 30:1 then it might indeed be a good idea to beat feet out of the AO.
Is that not turning and running ?

No criticism from me on that, as do not believe SF recuitment comes with a "You must die a hero asap".
Turning and running means you live to fight another day and SF turn and run IF required and also fight another day (many many days I believe).

SF wish to fight on their terms, so do others, can't criticise them for that.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 13:54
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Put aside the macho willy waving. You can say a lot of things about insurgents. But cowardly wouldn't be one of them (as a general rule).
Knowing you are outgunned and will probably die and you still fight to the death is generally not a sign of a coward.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 14:06
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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"our SAS boys laugh in face of those odds"

Not for long, nor would they have the last laugh.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 14:16
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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From the Ranger creed:

Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender* is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.

*nor is retreat.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 14:30
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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And my infantry motto, as I guess are all, was similar. The truth of the matter is for every military, withdrawal, retreat, tactical re-maneourvering, whatever you want to call it, is an every day, commendable, essential practice. If insurgent armies are cowards because they employ tactics we are hard pressed to fight against then we are as guilty as they are.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 14:39
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Sunray:

U.S. Army Infantry (11B): "Follow Me." (I was an infantryman before a Ranger.)

First I'm not sure I agree with the two words "insurgent" and "army". A loosely knit-together collection of rag.. bags, yes.

I was not meaning to denigrate a tactical withdrawl in the face of overwhelming enemy forces nor a tactical retreat after suffering major unit casualties.

What I was meaning to denigrate is the known tactic of insurgents, terrorists and other related rag bags to shoot weaponry (inaccurately at best) and then scoot. Shoot and then scoot. Those tactics are always the same whether practiced by Al Qaeda in Iraq, skinnies in Mog, or Arab "militia" in the 'Stan. Fire a few rounds and then run away as fast as you can. That's not fighting, that's chicken shit.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 14:41
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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I seem to recall that the military theorist JFC Fuller had a military maxim for the ignorant called

Hit
Move
Protect

It covers a lot of the basics of fighting in war, of various sorts. Pithy, it is.

Getting back to Iran, and getting away from Rangers, SF, rebels, irregular warfare, and such I am reminded of the great gnashing of teeth and rending of garments over the saber rattling circa 2007 that Cheney and Bush were embarked upon in the Persian Gulf. Horrors, there were two carrier battle groups in the vicinity. OMG, Rumors of War!!!! The whingers and appeasers were near apoplectic over the prospect of "he wants to start a war with Iran!"
Those of us who served know that during the Cold War, we almost always had two, sometimes three, carriers in the Med or near to it. No war there either.

He didn't want to start a war, and he didn't start one.
Did he achieve his political and strategic aims with that saber rattling?
Hard to say.
I was not in CENTCOM at the time and thus didn't have access to the documents one might be able to reference to see what a given demonstration or action is intended to achieve politcally. (Doubtless, Pvt Manning read them all ... )

Now that the jaw jaw has happened for our latest President, what aim is achieved other than a temporary series of praise from various media and pundits?

I am not sure. I am inclined to agree with Mr Baird from Canada that a skeptical view of the virtues of this latest move is warranted.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 16:00
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Not for long, nor would they have the last laugh.
Well, you're clearly not an afficionado of those highly factual accounts of SAS operations written by Chris Ryan and Andy McNab.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 16:03
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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I am inclined to agree with Mr Baird from Canada that a skeptical view of the virtues of this latest move is warranted.
It is early days and progress is progress. A healthy dose of skepticism is appropriate however surely we can also allow ourselves to be a little bit optimistic?
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 16:04
  #119 (permalink)  
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What I was meaning to denigrate is the known tactic of insurgents, terrorists and other related rag bags to shoot weaponry (inaccurately at best) and then scoot. Shoot and then scoot. Those tactics are always the same whether practiced by Al Qaeda in Iraq, skinnies in Mog, or Arab "militia" in the 'Stan. Fire a few rounds and then run away as fast as you can. That's not fighting, that's chicken shit.
If it works, it works. War is not about bravado: sticks and stones...
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 16:06
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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What I was meaning to denigrate is the known tactic of insurgents, terrorists and other related rag bags to shoot weaponry (inaccurately at best) and then scoot. Shoot and then scoot. Those tactics are always the same whether practiced by Al Qaeda in Iraq, skinnies in Mog, or Arab "militia" in the 'Stan. Fire a few rounds and then run away as fast as you can. That's not fighting, that's chicken shit.
You realise (intentionally or otherwise) that that statement can equally apply to anybody in a fast moving jet who shoots and scoots.

Why would you expect an enemy to fight to your strengths ?
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