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Old 1st Aug 2013, 16:31
  #21 (permalink)  
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So, if it had been insured, they should have taken the money
Insurance company wouldn't have paid out anyway, once van had been traced to a known location.

UFO
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 16:44
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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It doesn't matter where it was parked, whether it was unlocked or was not insured. This caravan belongs to somebody and to take it is simple theft and wrong.
I think the day is coming when communities start to employ their own security forces to patrol their neighbourhoods and prevent this kind of thing. The police are trying but the subsequent process doesn't follow up with any meaningful punishment or deterrence.
A good source of these community protectors would be the Ghurka soldiers which the UK cast off with callous indifference. I would gladly pay a monhly safety levy to these people. Justice would be swift and effective.
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 16:58
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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The new "owner" claims he paid 300 for it. I would have thought that he would have to prove ownership by providing a valid receipt for the cash. Minorities are continually proving to be exempt such niceties of the law.
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 16:59
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Caravan theft

It's quite simple the police are frightened/scared of the travelling community.If it was a stolen car there would have been a police chase helicopters stingers etc
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 17:39
  #25 (permalink)  
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In the television report they stated the gypo claimed he bought the Caravan off a man in a Pub,well that should be good enough for any court in the land shouldn't it.
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 19:39
  #26 (permalink)  
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O.J. Simpson received a sentence of over 30 years for doing just that

Check today's news on OJ !
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 22:07
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I saw a report on tv some time ago which showed how important it is to check whether a car has been stolen before you buy it. They showed cases where people had been pulled over at the side of the road by the police and a car removed by tow truck because it had been stolen. The new owner was completely unaware, had lost the car and was left at the side of the road. Nothing mentioned about their 'human rights' at the time.
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 22:09
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Same over here in Aus

So why the BS with this caravan, if it was you or I and in our front yard
different rules would apply.


Also, what would happen if the owners went in, hitched it up and
drove off with it ?

Or waited until travellers moved and unhitched it then ?
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 22:13
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Why not just hitch it up and tow it back to wherever you want it. Circuitousy and fast preferably.
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 22:29
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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In my distant youth I had a motor bike stolen from near where I worked. Reported it, but no joy, and had given up hope of ever seeing it again, when, about 6 months later, I looked out the window from work and saw a bike of the same model and colour. Walked down to check and sure enough, it was mine - I still had the key on my keyring.

A workmate went to the local police station while I waited in an adjacent shop, and a constable waited with me until two young blokes attempted to hop on, when they were promptly collared.

Turned out one of them had half a dozen stolen bikes. I was able to reclaim mine after a couple of days.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 01:18
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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The owners are still making payments. I'm sure they could 'stop payments' & arrange with their financers for the property to be repossessed and 'reallocated" .....
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 05:17
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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If police had the guts to check the chassis numbers on cars, vans and caravans on gipsy sites, I bet they would find that a lot of them had an interesting history.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 05:43
  #33 (permalink)  
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What would the French police do if this situation arose there ?
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 05:48
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Easy

Dawn raid with Batons drawn and support people behind them
in case someone objected.

Don't fcuk around with these guys, give them an inch and take it a mile.

This Human Rights BS is BS and someone needs to stand up and say
enough is enough.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 06:25
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TWT View Post
What would the French police do if this situation arose there ?
The French are hidebound by the same ECHR crap handed down by Brussels, but when the police get the green light to move them on, they go in hard. Le pikeys know this and don't put up the same resistance as in the UK. The Roma shanty towns are a different matter and get turfed out fairly quickly due to health and sanitary concerns. There have been a number of instances where they have set up camp close to immigrant ghettos and have been burned out in short order, and a mayor up in the North West is in trouble for saying, "Maybe the Nazis didn't go far enough".
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 06:31
  #36 (permalink)  
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Thanks for the insight sitigeltfel
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 08:31
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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When raiding a gypsy camp, the gendarmes always go in very large numbers, probaly start with a minimum of 20 for a small camp. French gypsies seem to be into more serious crime than is the norm in GB. As well as the usual copper thefts, they seem to be heavily involved in tearing cash-machines out of walls.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 14:24
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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back to the caravan......
there used to be a basic tenet in English law that someone buying or acquiring stolen goods could not create or obtain better title to the goods than that possessed by the thief. i.e if the goods were stolen, they remained stolen despite however many times they were resold, and however innocently.
I've noticed several reports in recent years where the police seem to ignore that basic rule, and to refuse to recognise such goods as stolen. It seems to me time that the police remembered that, and also looked at the recipients (in this case the current inhabitors of the caravan) as receivers of stolen goods.

After all, no-one would believe that 300 quid was a realistic payment for the caravan: with no proof of ownership, proving the purchase was carried out in the knowledge that it was dishonest should not be difficult
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 16:25
  #39 (permalink)  

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Not correct to blame the EU. The offence is created by section 22(1) of the Theft Act 1968 which provides:


A person handles stolen goods if (otherwise than in the course of stealing), knowing or believing them to be stolen goods he dishonestly receives the goods, or dishonestly undertakes or assists in their retention, removal, disposal or realisation by or for the benefit of another person, or if he arranges to do so


The accused's knowledge or belief as to the nature of the goods is crucial, but has been a constant source of interpretive problems. Either may be based on what the thief says or some other positive information, but belief is less than knowledge and more than mere suspicion. In R v Hall [1985] 81 Cr App R 260, it was held that, per Boreham, J.,


Belief.. is something short of knowledge. It may be said to be the state of mind of a person who says to himself: "I cannot say I know for certain that these goods are stolen, but there can be no other reasonable conclusion in the light of all the circumstances, in the light of all that I have heard and seen".

He went on to distinguish the case where a defendant has said


"I suspect that these goods may be stolen, but it may be on the other hand that they are not"

The situation is further complicated by the concept of recklessness or wilful blindness to the circumstances; either will be treated as a belief that the goods are stolen. Thus, suspicion will be converted into belief when the facts are so obvious that belief may safely be imputed. So if the defendant bought goods in a pub or a dark alley for a fraction of their true value and it is clear that identification marks or serial numbers have been erased, any denial of belief by the defendant would not be credib
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 17:12
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Lon More

Your copy & paste from Wikipedia and its reference to R v Hall [1985] is of limited relevance.

Stolen property continues to belong to its lawful owner - even if it is acquired by someone else, whether innocently or by 'Handling'.
(There used to be a very limited statutory exception but that was abolished in 1994.)


BTW, I was counsel in R v Hall. I won on the law but lost on the facts (so lost the case) but, at the time, the decision helped to clarify the law.


FL

(Edited to correct typos.)

Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 2nd Aug 2013 at 17:20.
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