Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

Rent a Mob. Frack off

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Rent a Mob. Frack off

Old 29th Jul 2013, 14:30
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edinburgh and 3C
Age: 67
Posts: 195
I'd be intrigued to know how, in the situation without frac(k)ing, when the fuel runs out and the power goes off, the water is going to be pumped from aquifers to homes and businesses.
MagnusP is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 15:01
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 66
Posts: 369
I'd be intrigued to know how, in the situation without frac(k)ing, when the fuel runs out and the power goes off, the water is going to be pumped from aquifers to homes and businesses.
Same way I pump water up from my borehole, a solar panel. Works just fine.

Not really the point here, though, as the water may well not be usable if there is a drilling accident, so it becomes a moot point.

Last edited by VP959; 29th Jul 2013 at 15:02.
VP959 is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 15:19
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 315
Yes Matari I had read that very interesting report and could be quite encouraging.

The problem as I see it is that pollution of the aquifer is likely to be a one-off event. With most developments you can introduce them slowly or partially. If there is a problem you back off, learn from the mistakes, change your method and try again.
In this location you really only have the one chance now and forever. Can we really be certain that there will never be an accident leading to pollution of that vital aquifer? Alternatively if the worst happens, where is the alternative water supply? This is not a problem for the fracking company - they can merely liquidate their local subsidiary and go home. I am minded of a little problem at Bhopal.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 15:40
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 278
Sallyann,

I understand your concern. It is up to your regulators and politicians to determine the risk / reward to shale gas exploration in the UK.

I think the UK and Europe in general is much less attractive to this type of activity than North America and Australia (as examples). Not just because of the geological, regulatory and bureaucratic differences, but due to the population density. Like I said before, the sub-surface geologic and technical risks of shale gas production are very well understood. The ground level infrastructure issues can be truly vexing.
Matari is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 15:59
  #65 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
I see some similarity between the demonization of fossil fuel frac(k)ing and the movement that developed against nuclear reactors a generation ago.

The irony is that both methods of providing the energy that makes our lives not only abundant, but possible, at our levels of population, serve to reduce the effluents we want to mitigate.

Do Prius owners realize they are actually driving coal-fired cars?
BenThere is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 16:14
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: egsh
Posts: 415
Do Prius owners realize they are actually driving coal-fired cars?
Not very many in the UK since the daughter of Grantham closed most of the pits.
wings folded is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 16:18
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 66
Posts: 369
We have one example here of the way that a responsible drilling company can drill (and I suspect hydraulically fracture) onshore in an environmentally sensitive area, as we have the biggest onshore oil field in western Europe here in Dorset (Wytch Farm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). That site is just outside the edge of the chalk that covers the major part of southern England though, so presents far less risk of groundwater contamination. It's also in an area of open heathland that is fairly sparsely populated.

I can't see any reason to object to responsible companies drilling and hydraulically fracturing if they are doing so away from the chalk and greensand aquifers, so they don't need to drill down through these sensitive strata to get to the underlying shale. There are sites around the edge of the chalk/greensand where this is both possible and where drilling would be viable, in fact several have been identified already.

Last edited by VP959; 29th Jul 2013 at 16:19.
VP959 is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 18:49
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,179
If that Wiki list of chemicals used in hydraulic fracturing is for real, then it just indicates that the operators haven't got a clue.
That quite simply looks like a random list of materials that happened to be lying around and waiting for disposal. Some are benign, others you wouldn't want anywhere near a biological system.
Progargyl alcohol? Dibromoacetonitrile? Thioglycolic acid?

Using those amounts to an act of pure stupidity from environmental and health points of view.
I think the deciding factor may well need to be exactly what chemicals are going down the borehole. Many of those chemicals are totally harmless. Some are rather unpleasant.
Milo Minderbinder is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 20:37
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberfreeze or the Sandpit
Age: 54
Posts: 134
If that Wiki list of chemicals used in hydraulic fracturing is for real, then it just indicates that the operators haven't got a clue.
That quite simply looks like a random list of materials that happened to be lying around and waiting for disposal. Some are benign, others you wouldn't want anywhere near a biological system.
Progargyl alcohol? Dibromoacetonitrile? Thioglycolic acid?

Using those amounts to an act of pure stupidity from environmental and health points of view.
I think the deciding factor may well need to be exactly what chemicals are going down the borehole. Many of those chemicals are totally harmless. Some are rather unpleasant.
The "wikki" list is a bucket list.
I've pumped a lot (but not all) of those chemicals over the last 30 years.
But then, if you look in the smoke off the tabs I puff on daily, you'll probably find all of them.

Hydrochloric acid, sounds nasty ? in your stomach at about 12%

there are typically less than 20 chemicals of note (more than 0.01%) in any given frac pumped these days. absolutely, over the last 40 years, all of those chemicals may have been pumped at some point.
But not much and not often.

300,000 psi ?

Simce airwave appears to be in the industry, I would be interested to know if 300,000 psi is anywhere near true ? It seems a phenomenal pressure for large volumes of fluid: I thought 1500 bar for tiny amounts of diesel in common-rail injector systems was very high.
I wish.

Max we can get at surface with any form of reliability is below 20,000 psi.
At rates of around 80 bbl/min (3,360 gallons per minute, or 15,000 litres/minute) which is not insubstantial, but not quite enough for what we need in the sandpit. ( a kick in the ar5e off 40,000 HP) through 3" pipes (3 of them)
plenty enough for use in the relatively soft shales in the UK.

it's all a compromise.
we can do it "relatively" safely.
Or we (energy providers) can just wander off, whistle and do it somewhere else.


Frac jobs can be carried out with relative safety and relative assurance of outcome.


If, the UK is self sufficient in energy, we won't sell the country off.
and we can afford desalination plants / water pipelines.
If it isn't. It won't belong to us anyway in 20 years. . . . .

Jumping up and down will not solve the energy crisis we face _right now_ in the UK.
We were within weeks last winter of being unable to run the gas main in the UK.
Qatar bailed us out.

Do you really, really, want to be bailed out by countries which are buying up where you live ?

By all means hug the trees.
Bear in mind Sheikh ma Willie now owns the estate that tree is on . . . .
and next year, he'll own more of the county as long as you keep buying his gas.
airwave45 is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 21:08
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,179
hydrochloric acid being pumped wouldn't bother me much

thioglyolic acid would - the stench of that stuff could poison an aquifer in concentrations of parts per billion
progargyl alcohol would worry me for toxicity reasons, so would the dibromoacetonitrile. I nearly killed myself handling a similar cyanide, its not a pleasant experience. You really wouldn't want either of those near the water supply.
If we knew actually just what was used in the hydraulic liquid, I think a lot of peoples worries would be allayed
Milo Minderbinder is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 21:09
  #71 (permalink)  

Official PPRuNe Chaplain
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Witnesham, Suffolk
Age: 75
Posts: 3,502
I'm not convinced about that abbreviation "fracing". I don't think that works.

Think "tracing" and "tracking" or "racing" and "racking". Phonetically, the k is needed to change the soft c into a hard ck. Etymology comes second to phonology!

As for pumping miscellaneous chemicals down a borehole ... I hope someone in authority knows what's going on and knows enough about the whole process. Otherwise we'll see a UK offshoot of a foreign company declaring bankruptcy and leaving the UK with a vast repair bill.
Keef is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2013, 21:16
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The 3 Valleys
Posts: 187
Not very many in the UK since the daughter of Grantham closed most of the pits.
Are you the love-child of LM?

.
If we knew actually just what was used in the hyt think wstdraulic liquid, I think a lot of peoples worries would be allayed
I really don't think so MM. Really any major enterprise has sacrificed public support as so many have been shown to be corrupt and crooked. Total shits.

Last edited by AlpineSkier; 30th Jul 2013 at 09:03.
AlpineSkier is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2013, 07:30
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: egsh
Posts: 415
Keef,

Think "tracing" and "tracking" or "racing" and "racking". Phonetically, the k is needed to change the soft c into a hard ck. Etymology comes second to phonology!
So do you tend to agree with my post 55, then?
wings folded is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2013, 07:34
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edinburgh and 3C
Age: 67
Posts: 195
Same way I pump water up from my borehole, a solar panel. Works just fine.
Presumably you're less concerned about the toxic pollution of water and farmland in China due to polysilicon production for your solar panels? Seems like the problem is simply moved elsewhere.

Incidentally, I was asking how you'd get the water up if there was NO fracking and power went off, so pollution from boring wouldn't be a problem.
MagnusP is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2013, 08:52
  #75 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,848
Think "tracing" and "tracking" or "racing" and "racking". Phonetically, the k is needed to change the soft c into a hard ck.
Really? What about arcing, Marc, Quebecer?

The Chaos
ORAC is online now  
Old 30th Jul 2013, 09:06
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The 3 Valleys
Posts: 187
All foreign words/derivations where the original pronounciation has been imported with the word. A bit like the new "French" words: call-centre, low-cost and tour-operator which are pronounced (as closely as possible) as in English
AlpineSkier is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2013, 10:33
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: London
Posts: 112
The proposals are to drill through this aquifer to get at the shale below, hence the concern expressed here about possible contamination of drinking water.
Cuadrilla are upgrading the existing oil well that was drilled by Conoco in the 80's. A hole through the aquifer already exists. At the time the oil quantity available made further use of the site uneconomic and it was sealed and abandoned.

As for the drilling, as much as I can determine is that a new hole will be drilled. This hole will be lined with two layers of concrete and two of steel designed to ensure that the aquifer is not contaminated. The rock between the aquifer and shale is impermeable.

As for seismic events, from what I can find, it seems that there is a possibility if they were to encounter stressed formations, but it is believed from the surveys, that this is not the case at Balcome (unlike Lancashire - so they say), however it is conceded that Balcome does contain some what they call 'ancient faults', which but induced seismic events are still seen as highly unlikely.

The fracking fluid is 99.75% water and sand. The remainder made up of hydrochloric acid, polyacrylamide and biocide (no gum and the last two being toxic as concentrates) with a quantity of 7 - 20 million liters of water depending on the size of the operation (lower end for the exploratory phase).

Contamination of the aquifer could exist from seepage from the holding pools on the surface and deformation of the steel and concrete casing in the hole due to seismic events (which is why it is double layered).

Another pollution hazard is bringing up naturally occurring radioactive material. They also estimate an extra 20 HGVs per day.
It seems, in a nutshell, that the likelihood of Cuadrilla buggering the aquifer up are very low, even if the consequences, should such an event come to pass, are severe.

However, this is just an exploratory effort. Balcome's problems will really start if they find they can make enough money out of it. In which case I should imaging dozens, if not hundreds of wells springing up across the region...
Kefuddle is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2013, 11:46
  #78 (permalink)  

More than just an ATCO
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Up someone's nose
Age: 70
Posts: 1,770
Are you the love-child of LM?
No, unllke your father, I use condoms.
Lon More is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2013, 12:13
  #79 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,848
All foreign words/derivations where the original pronounciation has been imported with the word.
Exactly..... just like fraccing.
ORAC is online now  
Old 30th Jul 2013, 12:22
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The 3 Valleys
Posts: 187
ORAC

I meant imported from a foreign language with different pronounciation: fracking derives directly from fracture which is English and follows normal practice of modifying any derivative so that it resembles the source word in sound.
AlpineSkier is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.