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Spanish Train Crash

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Spanish Train Crash

Old 30th Jul 2013, 16:28
  #201 (permalink)  
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...and mistook one curve for another while phoning......that's what he's reported as telling the Judge in complete confidence.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 16:41
  #202 (permalink)  
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Dear Rail Engineer. Your evident expertise and contributions requiring much efforts on your part here suggest that the Spanish authorities investigating the rail crash should seriously consider employing you as a representive "UK consultant" (unsure of how many UK nationals were involved though and whether or not that would be a sufficient incentive for the Spanish). But this "JB equivalent to an NTSB or AAIB investigation" is at least as worthy of as any previous ones on R&N involving airplanes IMHO?!

It should be noted that the Portugese refused UK involvement into the investigations of the disappearance of Megan a few years ago, until several years later (and probably far too late) by then, such is national pride (compared to getting the job done)...

Forgive me, but I cannot help but make comparisons between the Spanish train crash (in which the train-driver survived), and the more recent Italian bus crash (where the bus-driver died also)...?! In terms of attributing guilt (and eventual sentences), they appear to be miles apart, several thousand kms almost...
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:08
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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BBC News - Spain train driver 'on phone' at time of deadly crash

Yes but his company called him for info.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:09
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Breaking news driver was on phone at the time of the accidant
Not quite "breaking news" as he was reported at the time that the first news of the accident broke here as being on the phone to the rail company (see here: http://www.pprune.org/7959561-post33.html).

From that post on the 25th July:

The driver of the train made a panicked phone call moments before the crash saying that the train was going too fast.

"I'm at 190 (kmph) and I'm going to derail!" the engine driver told the controllers of RENFE, the rail network.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:25
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Quite likely the PR machines are working to provide press releases to convict the driver before evidence is even heard.

So far, from RE's informed imparting of knowledge it seems this accident was result of more politics and p*ss poor management than a 'leadfoot' [sic] driver.

Still... blame the driver and no political or senior level managements positions are threatened.


job done.


Last edited by stuckgear; 30th Jul 2013 at 17:27.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:30
  #206 (permalink)  
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the route he had to take to get to Ferrol.


Was there a choice?
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 18:17
  #207 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Phalconphixer View Post
"Is there any way of slowing down the replay speed of these videos when downloaded and replayed using VLC player or the windows Media Player?"
VLC is great for that: use the + / - keys for big speed changes, [ and ] for small changes. = (equals) returns the rate to 1x speed. Also, E for frame-by-frame.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 18:34
  #208 (permalink)  
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I suspect the "phone" being referred to will be a dedicated 2way radio system rather than the driver's mobile phone. There is reference on the BBC site to it's use being recoded on the on-board data recorder.

Most (all) UK trains have dedicated PMR systems with a 1 push emergency call facility so this is what may have been in use
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 18:39
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West lakes. Oh I see by reading the news I presumed it was his mobile sorry.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 18:55
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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airship
Thank you for your few kind words but I suspect I would be the last person the Spanish would now ask !

I have an admission to make as well. I am a trained and experienced former BR accident investigator used to clambering around in driving cabs recording equipment readings and control equipment positions, and crawling underneath vehicles to take brake pad temperatures, etc. etc.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 19:19
  #211 (permalink)  
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I am a trained and experienced former BR accident investigator used to clambering around in driving cabs recording equipment readings and control equipment positions, and crawling underneath vehicles to take brake pad temperatures, etc. etc.
Wonderful!
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 19:31
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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Both BBC and Sky are reporting the same court statement:
"Minutes before the train came off the tracks he received a call on his work phone to get indications on the route he had to take to get to Ferrol. From the content of the conversation and background noise it seems that the driver consulted a map or paper document," a court statement said."

Rather sounds like he received a call from "the management" which distracted him. The statement would seem to hint at a route change, or temporary speed restriction or similar. Certainly there shouldn't be a need for a call to a driver which needed him to consult a map while in motion.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 20:08
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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There was a fault on the train (non vital) which the second driver went to attend to and this Driver spoke to the train Driver by internal telephone in the minutes before the derailment.

The Driver also had a communication with the Control Centre in the minutes leading up to the derailment.

57% of the route between Ourense and Santiago is either underground or on viaducts.

Throughout its 87 kilometers there are 31 tunnels and 38 viaducts.

In the 10 miles before the derailment site, there are: three tunnels about 700 meters each (Caldelas, Reboredo Ardilleiro) lead to a long viaduct (Saramo, curved at 1,480 meters), after the which there is over one kilometre in a trench cutting before entering a new tunnel (Marrozos - 1158 meters) which then leads another long viaduct (O Eixo, straight, 1224 meters), which ends in Santiago (620 meters)

The derailment site is some 400 meters from the exit of that tunnel.

He was travelling at 197kmph and made a brake application which brought the speed of the train to 153kmph at the point of derailment.

Given the phone calls and the subjects I believe it is quite possible that he became disorientated, given the route description set out above.

Although ERTMS is operative on the line the train type concerned (Alvia) was not allowed to operate using the ERTMS system as there is a "dispute between Renfe (the TOC) and ADIF the Infrastructure Controller. Had ERTMS been operating it would have caused the train to slow down to 200kmph at the exit of the high speed section and would this almost certainly would have caused the Driver to realise where he was and commence the correct brake application. As it was he did not have this fall-back, became disorientated as a result of his immediate attention having been drawn away to other matters at a critical point in the journey.

I would suggest this is supported by some of the Driver's reported comments.

All of this information has had to be dragged out of the TOC/Infrastructure Controllers organisation through various medium and this now sets a completely different complexion on matters I would contend.

Even the most basic of hazard analysis and evaluations would have screamed out loud that these precursor events were an accident in the making. Instead we have lame excuses about how the systems are in place yet these systems have now been proven to be completely useless as they do not protect against a human error.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 21:13
  #214 (permalink)  
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I think that in aviation communications with operating staff are more controlled and less open to causing distraction.
We used to operate with a radio system similar to air band and access to it was strictly controlled so we saw little in the way of distraction.
Now with the use of mobile phones or clever PMRs that can be contacted by phone we do get calls at inappropriate times even if we tell the caller we can't take the calls some can get quite difficult

I was wondering in this case if it was a matter of timing!
I'm sure I saw that the train was about 5 minutes late, if that were the case was the call intended to be received by the driver whilst stationary at the station and not during a fairly critical stage of the journey?
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 21:17
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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Once again, Rail Engineer, we have to be grateful for your knowledge and expertise, and I was beginning to have a suspicion that you had worked in the field of rail accident analysis! It's a great pity that the information you have obtained and carefully summarised cannot be broadcast widely in the Spanish media. However, it is worth bearing in mind that when the outcome has been agreed and the judge had made his pronouncement, the relatives of the deceased will still agitate for the truth. Maybe they might just get a transcript in Spanish . . .
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 21:23
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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I'm wondering if this kind of job takes some kind of classes about crm...if there is a kind of regulation...
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 21:53
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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bnt... Many thanks for your hint re VLC player +/- works well for me. The other key selections don't work, but that's probably my Spanish keyboard (reconfigured to act as a Brit keyboard).
The +/- facility is good enough for my purposes... slowing the action in stages to one eighth normal speed.

Thanks again.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 23:49
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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Travelling at 200 kph you wouldn't need to be distracted for long to miss out on a braking point.

Management contacting him on the move, causing him to have to consult documents while he was on the move certainly puts a massive proportion of the guilt on them. In the UK it would anyway....
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 09:02
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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This call really spreads around/changes responsibilities unless there was also a protocol on the driver when he should/should not accept calls.

Since this was a dedicated service line, I would have expected that they could have different ring-tones to signal routine call/emergency call and a quick way ( button ? ) for the driver to signal "Busy now, will call back a.s.a.p. "
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 10:35
  #220 (permalink)  
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puts a massive proportion of the guilt on them.

No. He's driving the train. He's in charge. His decision to answer the coms system or not. Distraction is always possible - I don't deny it. But in handling machinery you are trained to prioritise what is important.

Crash your POV into another car and tell the police you were "answering a call" and see how far it gets you. Or truck or boat or whatever.
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