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Hugo Chavez dead

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Hugo Chavez dead

Old 6th Mar 2013, 10:12
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Except Zimbabwe hasn't got oil and sadly, Mugabe isn't dead.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 10:14
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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If he hadn't been so anti-US and had gone to an American hospital for treatment he would probably be still alive today.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 10:19
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Or deader.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 10:21
  #44 (permalink)  

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Any black helicopters round your way today, FSL?
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 10:33
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Capetonian, that all sounds well and good, but how was Chavez any worse than the near dictators that preceded him, but who enjoyed love and loyalty of the US?

Fact is he wasn't. The big difference was he extended a finger to the US and focussed on the majority of Venezuelan's at the expense of the minority. You may want to call that populism, others would call it democracy and fairness. For that, the right wing of course vilifies him. I think he'd take a lot of joy in seeing the foaming at the mouth rhetoric coming from here.

The US almost certainly had involvement in a coup attempt to oust him (the US has form there when it comes to Latin America), Donald Rumsfeld publicly compared him to Adolf Hitler, not to mention Pat Robertson calling for his assassination. Is it any surprise the US populace holds such a distorted viewpoint on the man?

As for changing the constitution to allow consecutive terms...so what? Most nations permit consecutive terms and in 1999 88% of the population voted in favour of a new constitution. Elections are certainly not squeaky clean but are considered by impartial observers to be free and fair. Ironic that far less free and fair elections in Colombia and elsewhere barely raise a a squeal from those on here, but the slightest sign of anything being less than perfect by Chavez and the howls begin. He was certainly no saint but in the context of Latin America and the region's politics he was par for the course and an improvement on those before him.

Chavez's crime was to prove that nationalising oil could bring massive benefits to the majority and a rejection of neoliberal policies.

As for shortages, funny how some get hot under the collar about them. We can all agree shortages aren't great but prior to his coming to power, shortages weren't an inconvenience for the majority of the population. They were life threatening.

Anyway, let the figures speak for themselves.

Before Chavez (1999) and after Chavez figures (2009-11)

Per Capital GDP: US$4,105, US$10,810
Unemployment: 14.5%, 7.6%
Infant mortality rate, per 1,000: 20%, 13%
Household extreme poverty: 19.3%, 7%
Population extreme poverty: 23.4%, 8.5%
Oil exports up from 14.4 billion to 60 billion $
Minimum wage: < US$00/month, ~US$700 month

Compare that to any recent US politician, Republican or otherwise.

...yep, I can quite understand why those on here are happy to see him dead. Perhaps we can now return to having a US stooge running the show, and one who siphons off the country's wealth to its northern neighbour...the way it should be, eh?

Certainly time for a change - 14 years is long enough in power. But wishing him dead, or wanting to turn back the clock on his reforms? No thanks.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 10:37
  #46 (permalink)  
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Andy S:
He had already amended the Venezuelan constitution to allow him to serve additional terms as president
And why I am not even surprised?

Sunray Minor: what you say is true (at least your numbers) however it is due to the sharp increase of the oil baril price during the period you mention (1999-2011): Venezuela is an oil dependant economy, that's the only point the numbers are proving.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 10:39
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Sunray

"Before Chavez (1999) and after Chavez figures (2009-11)

Per Capital GDP: US$4,105, US$10,810
Unemployment: 14.5%, 7.6%
Infant mortality rate, per 1,000: 20%, 13%
Household extreme poverty: 19.3%, 7%
Population extreme poverty: 23.4%, 8.5%
Oil exports up from 14.4 billion to 60 billion $
Minimum wage: < US$00/month, ~US$700 month"


Where did those figures come from ?

Link please to the Source ?

If he did that in 2 years, from 2009 - 2011,
seems like he should run a few other countries.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 10:43
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Sunray Minor:
When Chavez came to power the oil price was below €20/barrel. It is now around 6 times that figure.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 11:04
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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The big difference was he extended a finger to the US and focussed on the majority of Venezuelan's at the expense of the minority. You may want to call that populism, others would call it democracy and fairness.
https://www.whatsnextvenezuela.com/m...xpropriations/

October 2012:

An analysis by the Venezuelan Confederation of Industries (Conindustria) reveals that from 2002 to 2012 the Chávez government has taken over 1168 foreign and domestic companies.

June 2012:

Chávez secures a loan from an off-budget fund to finance the expropriation of Siderurgica del Turbio SA, a steel products company.

March 2012:

Chávez threatens to expropriate banks that support his political opposition, stating that, “it wouldn’t be bad at all to issue a decree and bring those firms under state control.”

The Venezuelan Central Bank reports that public and private investment in the Venezuelan economy is 10.3 percent below the 2008 level. Experts suggest that expropriations and other Chávez economic policies are to blame.

January 2012:

Chávez threatens to expropriate banks that refuse to finance agricultural projects promoted by his government.

Congresswoman and presidential pre-candidate for the Venezuelan opposition primaries, María Corina Machado, stood up in the middle of on one of Chávez’ notoriously long winded speeches, in defense of Venezuela’s private property, stating that “expropriation is robbery”.

Chávez government announces plans to leave the World Bank’s international arbitration body potentially affecting around 20 companies with unsettle led disputes and putting billions of dollars of foreign investment at risk.

December 2011:

Chávez government expropriates 16,479,300 square meters of land in different statesaround the country under the banner of the Housing Emergency Law.

Chávez orders the creation of the Superior Strategic Council for Expropriations, a 15-member council tasked with assisting and facilitating the government’s expropriation policies.

Venezuelan government expropriates the old headquarters of the Venezuelan newspaper, El Nacional.

Between 2007 and 2011, only 2.2 percent of the total amount paid by the Venezuelan government to expropriated companies went to domestic companies.

November 2011:

Chávez announces that “the plan for the elimination of private property has only begun.”

Venezuelan government takes control of “Los Guaiqueríes de Margarita,” a basketball team formerly owned by expropriated ferry company Conferry.

Chávez orders the takeover of 1,429,71 square meters of land from a Caracas car dealership.

Chávez threatens to expropriate any bank that fails to provide Venezuelans with long term mortgage credits.

President Chávez announces “rescue” of 580 hectares in the Quíbor Valley in the state of Lara, where 66 percent of the nation’s onions, 36 percent of peppers, and 16 percent of tomatoes are grown.

Private Property Rights Observatory records show that approximately 2,534 violations to private property have been registered in Venezuela between 2005 and November 2011.

October 2011:

Chávez expropriates popular tourist destination “Los Roques,” beginning its transition into a federally- controlled territory.

Thirteen tourism companies operating from the Simón Bolívar Airport in Maiquetía receive a 30-day eviction notice, which forces them to abandon the business places they have occupied for approximately 15 years

etc etc..

July 2011:

In Maracaibo, 47 expropriated farmlands remain abandoned, 24 farms continue to be partially or completely intervened, and the Peonío de Jesús “Chucho” Meleán farm is militarized

June 2011:

Chávez approves expropriation of 129 apartments in the Augusto Malavé Villalba complex in Carabobo State.

Venezuelan government approves the expropriation of 22 plots of land in Miranda State

January 2011:

A survey by Datanálisis finds that 80% of Venezuelans want private property to be respected.

President Chávez threatens Banco Provincial de Venezuela, an affiliate of Spanish bank BBVA, with expropriation.

December 2010:

According to Datanálisis, 74% of Venezuelans reject the government’s expropriations of private companies.

etc etc..


mmmm yeeeees ! democracy and fairness ? read again.

For that, the right wing of course vilifies him. I think he'd take a lot of joy in seeing the foaming at the mouth rhetoric coming from here.
No, the right thinkers vilify him beacuse he's a theiving, anti-democratic, dictating cnut..

the rhetoric foaming from here ? yes your rhetoric is indeed foaming and he'd take a lot of joy in it..

but as for the right thinkers; he's dead, we're not. We rejoice, he rots.

Last edited by stuckgear; 6th Mar 2013 at 11:16.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 11:23
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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The Killing Fields Of Caracas - Investors.com



What a girl.. i'm in love.. read below...

The silent protest at Monday night's Miss Universe Pageant in Las Vegas was invisible to nearly everyone — except Venezuelans. On her final catwalk, the ranking Miss Universe, Stefania Fernandez, suddenly whipped out a Venezuelan flag in a patriotic but protocol-breaking gesture.

Fernandez waved her flag for the same reason Americans waved theirs after 9/11 — to convey resolution amid distress. Her flag had seven stars, significant because Chavez had arbitrarily added an eighth, making any use of a difficult-to-find seven-star banner an act of defiance.

Fernandez's countrymen went wild with joy on bulletin boards and Facebook, showing just how worried they are about their country. Their greatest fear is violent crime.

Ever since Chavez became president in 1999, Venezuelan cities have become hellholes in which murder rates have more than quadrupled. At 233 per 100,000, or one murder every 90 minutes, the rate in Caracas now tops that of every war zone in the world, according to an official National Statistics Institute study released Wednesday.

In fact, crime is the defining fact of life in today's Venezuela. About 96% of all murder victims are poor and lower-middle class, the very people Chavez claims to represent. "Don't venture into barrios at any time of the day, let alone at night," warns the Lonely Planet guide to Venezuela to hardy adventure travelers.

By contrast, the murder rate in cartel-haunted Juarez, Mexico, is 133 per 100,000, with Mexico's overall rate 8 per 100,000, about the same as Wichita, Kan. Colombia, fighting a narcoterror war since 1964, has an overall rate of 37 per 100,000, slightly higher than Baltimore at 36.9. The overall U.S. rate is 5.4.

Make no mistake, a murder rate like Caracas' is a crime against humanity. The absence of personal security renders all other human rights moot. By coincidence, that's just what Chavez seeks to eliminate as he turns his country into a Cuba-style socialist state. Instead of Castroite firing squads or Stalinesque gulags, Chavez outsources the dirty work of socialism to criminals while throwing dissidents in jail and threatening to censor newspapers.

He may try to suppress the Dante-like photos of corpses piled high at the Caracas morgue from the El Nacional newspaper, but the hard fact is that Chavez is responsible for what's going on.

Early in his reign, he fomented class hatred by justifying theft so long as it was carried out by the poor. His arbitrary expropriations and encouragement of squatting on private property also contributed to an atmosphere of lawlessness that has since exploded.

Chavez also demeaned work, urging the poor to take his handouts. As a result, 40% of Venezuela's 20 million workers are now unemployed, with seven of eight not wanting work, according to the National Statistics Institute.

"It may be that the Chavista giveaways provide free time for the criminals to spend doing their thing rather than being dutifully employed and thus busy," wrote the Venezuelan blogger at The Devil's Excrement Web site.

Then there's Chavez's encouragement of the drug trade. In 2005, he cut off cooperation with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, calling U.S. agents "spies." The move opened Venezuela's vast territory to drug traffickers fleeing the crackdown in Colombia.

Drug cash bought off government officials, with a 2009 U.S. government report noting that the Chavista regime includes drug kingpins at top levels, and that the National Guard, which controls ports, has been bought off by traffickers. Today, nearly all drug flights heading to Central America, the Caribbean and Africa originate in Venezuela.

By permitting FARC to operate in his territory, Chavez has also become an undeclared state sponsor of terror. FARC now controls 60% of Colombia's cocaine production and kidnaps, murders, extorts and people-trafficks inside Venezuela.

The cartel's free rein means Chavez may now be powerless to control it. Like a deal with the devil, it is penetrating government and may eventually topple Chavez.

Meantime, Chavez is using crime as a tool to oppress. Why that doesn't merit sanctions by the international community remains a mystery.
very fair and democratic !


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Old 6th Mar 2013, 11:23
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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When you lose the taxi drivers, you lose the country. Hugo lost his taxi drivers years ago, and could only hold on to power through corrupt 'elections' in Caracas slums. A trip from Maiquetía to center of town would typically be a string of invective against the great commandante. Everyone had relatives in the US, and everyone except the communist cadres were looking for a way out.

Colombia, right next door, accepted the fleeing Venezuelan middle class, the engineers, the doctors, with open arms, and is thriving now. Venezuela, without the oil, is a basket case.

I wonder why Sunray (and others...they'll be along shortly) never addresses the exodus of the middle class from these great socialist paradises, and the lengths the governments go to keep them in. Venezuela, where even arepas were in short supply, was well on its way to becoming another Cuba. Only a bullet ensures allegiance to the cause.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 11:30
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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"Venezuela, without the oil, is a basket case."

I just did a quick look and didn't realise just how much
oil made up the GDP of the country.

Way too much dependence on one item.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 11:36
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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but if you're going to weild ultimate power over the citizenry disarm them..

(Maybe for another thread gun bans work..)

Hugo Chavez Outlaws Gun Ownership, Murder Rate Hits 21,692
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 11:45
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Sunray Minor,

While you make, what on the face of it, are reasonable points, context is everything……

Having castigated the BBC earlier, I have to acknowledge this far more objective piece:

BBC News - Hugo Chavez leaves Venezuela in economic muddle

It makes the point that although Chavez oversaw a more equitable distribution of ‘the cake’ in Venezuela, that cake hasn’t grown significantly. Since (as others have noted) the price of oil has increased greatly during the Chavez years, where has the dosh gone? As the BBC article suggests, it has probably disappeared through a combination of corruption, incompetence and impromptu economic policy making. And of course, because he was effectively a dictator, no-one could hold Chavez to account.
The reality is that while he may, indeed, have reduced inequality, he has done so simply by sloshing oil revenues around rather than any meaningful structural reform of the economy. Meanwhile, Venezuela has been outperformed economically by Brazil and Columbia, and it’s middle classes have been bullied mercilessly.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 11:54
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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though Andy i do have to chuckle at the BBC's presentation of being in a 'muddle', like one would get when one has too much paperwork on one's desk and mislays a document..

muddle indeed !

Of course the BBC could never admit that socialist doctrine has resulted in an effing hellhole !

'muddle' will have to do...
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 12:09
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Originally Posted by 500N View Post
"Venezuela, without the oil, is a basket case."

I just did a quick look and didn't realise just how much
oil made up the GDP of the country.

Way too much dependence on one item.
Swap the word "Venezuela" for "Scotland" and you could put that post on the SNP thread.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 12:15
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Stuckgear,

Wow...I take it all back. He clearly needs to die (no, be assassinated) for all that.

Rather than getting your "impartial" information from What's Next Venezuela? | What's Next Venezuela Newsroom perhaps we can agree to reference that notoriously socialist commie rag, The Economist, for a slightly more balanced view on Chavez' record. The Economist has pulled no punches and takes avowedly neo-liberal stances on Latin America: Venezuela after Chávez: Now for the reckoning | The Economist
Or perhaps Postscript: Hugo Chavez, 1954-2013 : The New Yorker

Its interesting the focus on the murder rate. The article you are quoting plays fast and loose with the figures. Venezuela indeed has a terrible crime rate at about 45/100,000. But Colombia's is about 31/100,000 and much of central America sits at 70 to 90/100,000. Put another way, if Venezuela's murder rate at 10x that of the US' is a "crime against humanity", is it also a crime against humanity that the US' murder rate is 5-10x that of most Western nations? Or would slightly less strident language be used? The article you quoted is a propaganda piece equal or worse to that the most rabid Chavista supporter could come out with.

The US does itself no credibility in overblowing Chavez' reign, from one of simply flawed and egoistic policy with a mixed bag of success into a "terrorist" "dictatorship" where his death should be cheered with as much joy as Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 12:25
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but if you're going to weild ultimate power over the citizenry disarm them..
It's Wield. I could understand it if you were fkucking up antidisestablishmentarianism, but a one syllable word with five letters.

Thick people in remain thick shocker.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 12:34
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Sunray,

Don't bang on too much about how Chavez was simply giving the finger to the US. We're quite used to it; in fact, cultured Europeans have made it a refined art.

I give you this: Chavez had yet to become the mass murderer that communists will, left to their own devices, inevitably become. He was a thug, a thief and a threat to the region. He had not yet achieved the ultimate power that he craved, but he was well on his way.

Capriles narrowly lost the last election (stolen, of course). We shall see how brutal Hugo's henchmen behave now. There are many skeletons in the closets there. The powerful will not give up power without a fight.

Meanwhile, enjoy the gin fizz at the London cocktail parties. I will have a cold Polar beer, the one private business he tried desperately to expropriate but could not.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 12:40
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It's Wield. I could understand it if you were fkucking up antidisestablishmentarianism, but a one syllable word with five letters.

Thick people in remain thick shocker.
ohh a typing lame from the resident Professor Pub Singer.

The Micahel Bolton covers not in much demand? so you're reduced to internet forum surfing looking for typographical errors in posts.

so perhaps while you snort with your lofty intellectualism, you can ponder the words 'play the ball not the player'.. or with your perputual bile is that too difficult a concept to comprehend?

never mind pub singer, your public continues to laugh at you, not with you.

Last edited by stuckgear; 6th Mar 2013 at 12:44.
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