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Dare I bring this subject up?

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Dare I bring this subject up?

Old 2nd Dec 2012, 08:35
  #541 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Israel did, launching an invasion of the West Bank town of Samu.
Not the beginning of the war, just another skirmish in an ever ongoing series of skirmishes to this day. Pointless trying to decide who was first, "You started it!, NO! You did..." sort of thing.

However, as to what lead to the start of the actual war, to quote Wiki:

....The Straits of Tiran was regarded by the Western Powers and Israel as an international waterway but its legal status was the subject of international controversy. The Arabs believed that they had the right to regulate passage of ships while Israel, with the support of other major world powers, countered that the Arab claims were legally not supportable. In 1967 Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or a justification for war. On May 22 Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping. Nasser stated he was open to referring the closure to the International Court of Justice to determine its legality, but this option was rejected by Israel. Egyptian propaganda attacked Israel, and on May 27, Nasser stated "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

On May 30, Jordan and Egypt signed a defense pact. The following day, at Jordan's invitation, the Iraqi army began deploying troops and armored units in Jordan. They were later reinforced by an Egyptian contingent. On June 1, Israel formed a National Unity Government by widening its cabinet, and on June 4 the decision was made to go to war. The next morning, Israel launched Operation Focus, a large-scale surprise air strike that was the opening of the Six-Day War.

Most scholarly accounts of the crisis attribute the drift to war to an escalation that was unwanted, however despite a desire to avoid war on all sides, everyone was in the end responsible for making the escalation unavoidable.....
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 08:35
  #542 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not so certain about "Gutter State" ME.

Lots of good Jewish people live there trying to pressure the likud party into a more moderate stance.

All nations have dark spots in their history ME. Besides, if Israel goes....who takes in all the refugees? Could give them Utah, but they won't appreciate it.

Three points of clarification:

1. Jew is not a race, it’s a religion.

2. Israel is a democracy, but not necessarily a secular democracy.

3. No Arab nation is a secular democracy.

Last edited by Temp Spike; 2nd Dec 2012 at 09:05.
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 08:36
  #543 (permalink)  
 
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Israel did, launching an invasion of the West Bank town of Samu.
And the reason for that, LAJ, was.........


Come on, tell us all why the IDF did what they did, and explain why you ignore the activities of Syria with their indiscriminate shelling of Israeli territory in the years building up to the 4 hour "invasion" you mention (yes, despite what you will try to say, the Israelis were all back behind the original "ceasefire line" within 4 hours of their "invasion".), and explain why you happily ignore the activities of Syria in nurturing the terrorists who were also indiscriminately attacking Israel. And explain why you also ignore the Soviets in all of this, for it was they who were pulling the strings to destabilise the region so they could "have their people" in place over the whole region instead of having an area that was sympathetic to the US.

But, no, it's all the fault of the evil Zionist Jews, they did it all. Even though the small matter of Syria funnelling PLO terrorists through Jordanian territory, against the wishes and without the permission of Jordan, is what kicked the whole thing off. But that's the fault if the Jews for daring to exist, in minds like yours, it's easier to blame them than it is to actually figure out what was going on at the time and see where the true faults lie.......
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 09:04
  #544 (permalink)  

 
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ORAC,

Why don't you direct your post in BenThere's direction. Oops I forgot, it doesn't suit your agenda

Seeing as you wish to quote wiki.......

The Samu incident refers to events on November 13, 1966 involving an Israeli military attack on the Jordanian-controlled West Bank village of Samu in response to al-Fatah raids against Israelis near the West Bank border. It was the largest Israeli military operation since the 1956 Suez Crisis and is considered to have been a contributing factor to the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 09:09
  #545 (permalink)  
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And I'll reiterate my first comment on the Samu Incident...

Not the beginning of the war, just another skirmish in an ever ongoing series of skirmishes to this day. Pointless trying to decide who was first, "You started it!, NO! You did..." sort of thing.
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 09:17
  #546 (permalink)  
 
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There was a reason that the UN general assembly voted to recognize a Palestinian State. The conflict has gone on way to long and the world is losing confidence in Israel, that is the message. Without the United States I doubt very much Israel would last very long. So just “dumping” Israel would have dire consequences for many people.
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 09:18
  #547 (permalink)  
 
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Why don't you direct your post in BenThere's direction. Oops I forgot, it doesn't suit your agenda
Same as answering the questions I posed won't suit your own agenda, LAJ?

So, come on, tell us all WHY the IDF spent 4 hours on the wrong side of the ceasefire line on 13/11/1966, what made them do that.......


Oh, and since that was over 6 months before the Six Day War, it wasn't actually something that was a factor in the start of the Six Day War. The actions of various Arabic States, however, especially Syria and Egypt, and the false intelligence coming from the Soviets, were the contributory factors and only someone who is blinded by his hatred of the Jewish State would ignore them.
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 09:21
  #548 (permalink)  

 
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And I'll reiterate my comment to you. BenThere claimed that it wasn't Israel that violated the borders leading to the 6 day war. Why don't you take him to task on the "who started it first" issue ?
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 09:30
  #549 (permalink)  

 
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Here hellsbrink,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

As ORAC said, there were plenty of border skirmishes before Israel invaded Samu. You can argue both ways as to who started it. But for BenThere to glibly claim that Israel did not infringe borders is pure fiction and a distortion of fact, that is only believed by the most pro-Israeli, Arab haters.
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 09:34
  #550 (permalink)  
 
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And I will reiterate things. WHY did they spend 4 hours on the wrong side of the ceasefire line. I'll give you a clue, others were already violating the border by carrying out terrorist attacks on the state of Israel, others who were acting as proxies for countries like Syria and the USSR.

So, again, look back and see who actually violated the border first, who was carrying out attacks first, which countries were involved in violating the ceasefire, which countries then went on to carry out attacks on civilians around the Sea of Galilee as far back as 1960. In other words, there were various attacks on Israel which actually violated the borders, ceasefire lines, DMZ's, etc, for quite some time before your "evil Jewish Invasion" (which wasn't actually one as the intent was to always retreat back behind the ceasefire line, meaning it was an INCURSION) and does kinda show who the evil aggressors actually were.

But don't let small matters like the actual aggressors being people other than Jewish, it won't suit your agenda.......
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 09:50
  #551 (permalink)  

 
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Invasion, incursion, call it what you will. Israel was heavily criticised by the Security Council for it and most historians argue that the over the top reaction (to 3 Israeli soldiers being killed by a mine) was the prelude to war and Israel had spent 2 years provoking Syria along its border.

So don't let small matters like that affect your quite obvious prejudices
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 09:56
  #552 (permalink)  

 
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Out of curiosity hellsbrink, what kind of groups would you class the Stern Gang and Irgun ?
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 10:14
  #553 (permalink)  
 
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Dear boy, the final attack using a mine was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, or do all of the other Syrian backed attacks using Jordanian territory (hmm, that sound like Syria was violating borders willingly, the very thing you accuse Israel of doing first) mean nothing in your mind because it wasn't carried out by the Jews? Or do you mean you actually support all and any terrorist activity as long as it isn't against the poor "Palestinians"

And, again, you ignore the actions of Syria, Egypt and the USSR (or does their dodgy intel, which led to Nasser's military buildup in Sinai and the possibility of losing face if he recalled them, as he should have, which was a more contrubitory factor in the buildup to the Six Day War than a 4 hour raid on Syrian backed terrorists, mean nothing to you either) in all of the events, you ignore Syria violating borders, you ignore everything that doesn't suit your own agenda yet have the nerve to sit there telling others how they are only selecting facts to suit THEIR agendas? Astounding.

But, here you go, read this page for the list of attacks on Israel by her neighbours in the years before the Six Day War. I see plenty breaches of UN resolutions and agreements by ARAB countries there.

Breakdown of Attacks Against Israel Leading up to the Six-Day War - The Israel Project - Archive

And since you like talking about UN "rules", explain how the blockade of ships to Israel in the Strait of Tiran by Egypt, in violation of the UN agreements over said Strait, is to be ignored by yourself. Explain why the REPEATED Syrian violations of the ceasefire is ignored by you. Explain why the expulsion of UN peacekeepers in Sinai by Egypt is to be ignored. Explain why only the alleged breach of UN resolutions (in a 4 hour incursion using a fraction of the troops mobilised, a bit you conveniently left out of your Wiki quote. How surprising) by Israel matters in your Anti-Jew world.........

And, again, explain your love of terrorists, since you didn't even answer that one when it was asked back on page 10, same as you didn't explain your nonsense mentioning of NORAID in the nonsense reply you gave.........


But I know you won't answer the direct points made, you won't tell us anything. It won't suit your agenda......
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 10:20
  #554 (permalink)  

 
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So you won't answer the question hellsbrink ?

Does it not suit your agenda ?

Love of terrorists ? Care to provide proof of that or were you in Dutch cafes again last night ?

Last edited by LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK; 2nd Dec 2012 at 10:31.
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 10:41
  #555 (permalink)  
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Hey ORAC do you still believe Ahmed's Dinner Jacket is threatening to "wipe Israel of the map"?
I believe he said it at the time, as reported by the Islamic Republic of Ian Broadcasting.

I also accept that, as a result of the subsequent publicity both he and his supporters put it down to translation problems, though I would have thought they knew how to translate their own language and their interpreters were competent enough to know common english idiomatic phrases.

Do I believe he still threatening to do so? As of 24th September 2012, yes.........
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 12:03
  #556 (permalink)  
 
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So you won't answer the question hellsbrink ?

Does it not suit your agenda ?

Love of terrorists ? Care to provide proof of that or were you in Dutch cafes again last night ?
Back to your old faithful retort of pathetic insult when someone doesn't agree with you, I see, along with your favourite attempt to avoid the issue by trying to change the subject. All you do is, yet again, show that you have no idea about what you are talking about as the facts of the matter do actually show your position, and agenda, to be fundamentally flawed. After all, you would answer the points at hand instead of bringing up NORAID and disbanded groups which had nothing to do with the matter being discussed if you actually knew anything about what you are talking about. You would do that, wouldn't you?

As far as your question goes, I didn't see it so that is why I didn't answer. But they are kinda irrelevant in the discussion regarding the state-sponsored terrorist attacks on the STATE OF ISRAEL, the actions of the neighbouring countries and the USSR regarding the State of Israel and the actions which resulted in the Six Day War. Of course, again, you ignore everything in the link provided previously showing the level of attacks Israel faced in the years before 1967 and wish to deflect attention away to two terrorist groups which were disbanded over 15 years before the 1967 conflict. And, since we are on this subject, you still haven't shown a reason for your support of terrorists, like Hamas, who, unlike Stern and Irgun who were merely integrated into the armed forces, have tried to claim some sort of legitimacy by becoming political entities. You happily ignore the history of the "Palestinian" (you do realise how many of them are from countries outside the area which the British named "Palestine", don't you?) terrorists yet are happy to bring up organisations that were disbanded before 1950. Why is that, why are the atrocities carried out by Hamas, and just look at the Fatah-Hamas conflict for all the evidence you need of their ability to carry out atrocities, ignored whilst you happily attack the Jews for their attacks on aggression by these terrorists?

These questions have been asked before, a proper answer to them would be nice
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 12:33
  #557 (permalink)  
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ORAC linked:
NEW YORK, Sept 24 (Reuters) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Monday Israel has no roots in the Middle East and would be "eliminated,"...
You've been around a while (3 score + 25), in terms of "UN diplomatic-speak", are there any perhaps very subtle differences in the use of the terms "elimination", "annihilation", or the phrase "wiped off the surface of the planet" etc.?

At least the Israelis are relatively unambigious: "We want an enduring peace, which is why we continue building illegal settlements. Most countries conduct exercises to keep their armed-forces sharp. The IDF prefers to conduct "real" tests, not just "exercises", which is why we regularly bombard Gaza (UK equivalent of Salisbury plains) every 3-4 years. Munitions also have a "shelf-life" and "best consummed before" date BTW."

Time for my Sunday afternoon nap...
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 13:03
  #558 (permalink)  
 
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The Occupied territories are inevitably going to prevent a permanent deal in the Middle east. Continuing to build permanent settlements in them is like sticking a large stick in to your neighbours' eyes.

If France had invaded Kent, and behaved like Israel, or if Mexico had invaded Texas, and behaved like Israel, I suspect that opinions would be different.

However, i would not want to live in a place where my neighbour kept on bombing me.....
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 14:13
  #559 (permalink)  
 
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The Gaza settlements were 'permanent' and Israel removed them. For that peaceful gesture, they got in return waves of suicide bombers and hundreds of missiles targeting civilians.
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Old 2nd Dec 2012, 14:42
  #560 (permalink)  
 
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UK equivalent of Salisbury plains
As a point of order... There's only one Plain near Salisbury...
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