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War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original

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War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original

Old 19th Feb 2015, 00:15
  #16421 (permalink)  
 
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Killing people for ANY reason is abhorrent. I really don't mind what you do with these people, just don't kill them. We separate ourselves from bad people by not doing what they do. It is not a deterrent and it does not change anything. In the case of murder it doesn't bring the victims back.

To be blunt, the whole biblical "eye for an eye" thing is complete and utter BS.
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 00:49
  #16422 (permalink)  
prospector
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To be blunt, the whole biblical "eye for an eye" thing is complete and utter BS.
You may think so, many do not. The rate of recividist criminal behaviour is certainly reduced when the death penalty is earned, as it certainly was in this case, proven beyond doubt, and is carried out.

If these young Australians, being aware of the penalty for their illegal drug dealing was the death sentence in the area they chose to operate, then no amount of repentance, under duress and no doubt coaching from the some of the legal fraternity, should be of any consequence.
 
Old 19th Feb 2015, 01:16
  #16423 (permalink)  
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
 
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Doesn't anyone else think that the more that various parts of Australian society protest, the less likely that any reconsideration by Indonesia will occur?

IMHO the greater public protests will just make the Indos dig their heels in and become even more determined to carry out the executions. I would've thought that quiet behind-the-scenes diplomacy might have more chance of succeeding.

Besides, do not some sections of Indonesian authority regard Australia as the 'white trash of S/E Asia'?

However;

If these young Australians, being aware of the penalty for their illegal drug dealing was the death sentence in the area they chose to operate, then no amount of repentance, under duress and no doubt coaching from the some of the legal fraternity, should be of any consequence.
Agreed.
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 01:36
  #16424 (permalink)  
 
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There is absolutely no way the Indonesians will back off executing the two drug traffickers. They would lose to much face and that has been the case since the Bali Nine were caught and the arrest was public.

The only thing more important to Asian politicians than face is money.
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 01:44
  #16425 (permalink)  
 
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Well prospector that is just not true. In the United States, states that have the death penalty even have a slight increase in murder rates compared to those who don't. So im happy for that small increase to be seen as negligible and thus even with those states that don't impose it=not a deterrent. And even if it did lower crime would it still be a justification to kill people?

There are many other ways to reduce crime and contrary to the media leading us to believe we live in a scary violent world the reality is we are living in an increasingly safer, better world.

We have to seperate the issue of "they knew Indonesia had the death penalty and they still did it". That is not a justification. I won't be attending vigils and sing songs in their names howver, I will argue forever that the death penalty is a bad idea. Let us move on as a human race.....still killing each other over stuff we dig up out of the ground though I suppose so we have a while to go.
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 01:50
  #16426 (permalink)  
 
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These two are not the only Australians to be caught in SE Asia on drug charges. At least three others have been executed over the last twenty years or so. The process has been the same. As in the past and as now there has been behind the scenes diplomatic work, overt government and public outrage, calls for sanctions, withdrawing of diplomatic staff etc, etc. The processes are identical and the result the same - execution. A few more weeks of outrage then back to business. This is international politics in motion.
For those here who are not from Australia and from countries where capital punishment is not sanctioned your governments would act exactly as ours (Liberal or Labor) has.
For those who have forgotten their youth let me remind you - the only thing young people think is that they are bulletproof.
Gags
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 02:03
  #16427 (permalink)  
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I will argue forever that the death penalty is a bad idea.
And what do you think the end result of these people peddling drugs to other young people eventually ends up as?

We are not talking about party drugs here, have a look at the end result of these peoples efforts to make easy money.

At least their deaths will be quick and relatively painless, not always so with their victims, sorry, customers.


So im happy for that small increase to be seen as negligible and thus even with those states that don't impose it=not a deterrent.

And how would you faction in the people who have received the death sentence in those figures? Would they have killed again?

still killing each other over stuff we dig up out of the ground
And what is even more stupid, killing others because they believe the wrong fairytale, or their prophets name is different.
 
Old 19th Feb 2015, 03:07
  #16428 (permalink)  
 
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David Hicks says that the Australian government should cover his medical and legal bills.

Stand by, next he'll be asking for a *** Gold Card from the DVA (Department of Veteran's Affairs).

If Tony Abbott is seen to give the man one taxpayer dollar, there'll be an outcry that will drown out even the counter cry from the luvvies at the ABC.
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 03:16
  #16429 (permalink)  
 
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Killing people for ANY reason is abhorrent.
Thats your moral value and your entitled to it.

I really don't mind what you do with these people, just don't kill them.
Again your entitled to your view

We separate ourselves from bad people by not doing what they do.
No we separate ourselves from people who "we" perceive as "bad" in reference to our values. There is no good or bad, its just a moral standpoint. If you take absolute positions on subjects, then conceptually you are just as much as an extremist as the guy on the other side.

We as a society have gotten here though various means, some of those means is not being extremist and compromising, sometimes our values.

It is not a deterrent and it does not change anything.
Not true, like every other law and punishment, there are various vectors that will constitute its success. A bit like a threat is no threat at all if it has no chance of being carried out.

In essence, if you have laws in your society, it depends on multiple variables, of which two are the level of punishment, versus the probability of that punishment being carried out.

Another words you can have a harsh as punishment as you like, if the probability of getting it is to small, then you may well not have it.

In the case of murder it doesn't bring the victims back.
Very true, but that negates the other half of the reason we have punishment. And in the case of the two druggys on death row, why it doesn't matter if they have been rehabilitated or not.
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 03:52
  #16430 (permalink)  
 
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eagle86 - The parties and media might be up in arms about them but I suspect the vast silent majority of the Australian public really couldn't give tuppence about them. I haven't spoken to one person who cares - friends, family, colleagues - not one.

Some of the reports coming out of the media are nauseating in the extreme. "Unfortunate Australians" my arse, they weren't planning on smuggling raspberries into the country.

There is a concerted campaign to try and blame the AFP for the whole thing which is nothing but a bare-faced attempt to hide their guilt.

Do I want them to die ? No but I want them to rot in a Bali prison for the next 20 years.
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 04:33
  #16431 (permalink)  
 
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Wouldn't happen to have a PhD (Hons.1) in Nihilism Rho200 by chance? Sheesh
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 04:34
  #16432 (permalink)  
 
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Instead of wondering what the Indonesians are thinking we can read their news.

Technical glitch, mental illness delay executions | The Jakarta Post

I understand that the Indonesians had more than enough of Whitey telling them what to do in colonial times and don't take kindly to it now.

If there were two Australians on death row in the USA would we still have this ridiculous posturing going on?
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 04:38
  #16433 (permalink)  
 
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Wouldn't happen to have a PhD (Hons.1) in Nihilism Rho200 by chance? Sheesh
Yaawwwn. No need, basic human nature and science is what it is. Unless your a religious person, then I guess thats your guide, if not its what ever floats your boat..
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 06:36
  #16434 (permalink)  
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I understand that the Indonesians had more than enough of Whitey telling them what to do in colonial times and don't take kindly to it now.
They certainly don't. In 1945, when Japan surrendered and news of the surrender reached Indonesia, the Japanese guards ran away, whereupon gangs of Indonesians went into the internment camps, where the ex-pat population, (mainly Dutch), had spent the occupation and slaughtered several hundred of them. I worked there in 1968 and they regarded us a necessary evil, to be buggered about and extorted as much as possible.

The opposition groups are already ganging up on Abbot criticising his various comments to Indonesia, he is between a rock and a hard place. Just waiting for SHY and Co. to start shouting about Hicks now. Apology my arse.
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 06:42
  #16435 (permalink)  
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Well prospector that is just not true. In the United States, states that have the death penalty even have a slight increase in murder rates compared to those who don't. So im happy for that small increase to be seen as negligible and thus even with those states that don't impose it=not a deterrent.
That is flawed Jeps. The population continues to increase as does unemployment. There is no way of gauging how many people elected not to seek murder as a solution because they knew a death penalty was in force.
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 06:45
  #16436 (permalink)  
 
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para,
Well, yes but it's just ol' 'foot-in-mouth' Tony true to form - he just can't help himself.
He's a national embarrassment.

As for David Hicks... Go jump in the lake, mate!


p.s. The reason Tony spends so much time with one foot in his mouth is that it just reduces the chance of shooting himself in the foot by 50%.

Last edited by Stanwell; 19th Feb 2015 at 07:07. Reason: add ps
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 08:02
  #16437 (permalink)  
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Can't say they weren't warned ! Actions have consequences.

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Old 19th Feb 2015, 16:00
  #16438 (permalink)  
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What are we betting, spirit?
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 17:05
  #16439 (permalink)  
RJM
 
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IMHO the greater public protests will just make the Indos dig their heels in and become even more determined to carry out the executions.
What if that's true, and everyone knows it - including the Australian government which is making such public efforts to save the pair? We may not have a tradition of saving face, but our politicians are certainly sensitive about retaining political capital. It may sound cynical, but we may just be seeing a mime show for the benefit of all the bleeding hearts out there.

This is even more cynical: A further indicator is the conspicuous absence in this of the likes of Julian Burnside, David Manne and Robert Manne, for that matter. If there were a chance of these guys avoiding the firing squad, the chorus of social justice proponents would be there, warbling away. But they're not. They like to pick winners.
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Old 19th Feb 2015, 19:02
  #16440 (permalink)  
 
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the conspicuous absence in this of the likes of Julian Burnside, David Manne and Robert Manne
Probably because the next gravy train - AKA the David Hicks compensation case - will be boarding soon.

The good captain could be gone in 2 weeks according to grapevine. Pres. Turnbull and new team gotta lot to sort and quickly
Or was that just your wet dream?
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