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[email protected]*^%#* Hi Vis Vests

Old 9th Dec 2011, 07:42
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I also saw a group of (supervised) nursery children wearing high viz vests - nothing like programming people early!
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 07:49
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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kangaroota:
"wearing them decreases the probability of an accident to virtually zero"
That's exactly the opposite of what rh200 said.

the decreased probability of an accident is virtually zero.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 07:52
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I recall back in the nineties, high viz vests were beginning to be introduced at airports. At the time it seemed like a good idea to me. I worked on the ramp at Dublin airport and there were times when you took your life in your hands walking anywhere with the number of airport vehicles hurtling about, particularly at night. Two of our flight crew were hit and badly injured at a British airport, Stanstead I think. Being a night cargo operation naturally they were on the ramp in the dark. At that point high viz was introduced although not mandatory.

So that's the background to the introduction of high viz vests, naturally of course it rapidly got silly. Now you can go to airports where the only sounds are the lonely wind whistling across the empty ramp and the security guard roaring at you for not wearing your vest.

As they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 08:02
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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I can see their validity at a big airport with said support stuff whizzing about but as has been pointed out at a GA field - ridiculous...along that line there is (or was) a well known UK GA mag selling them with the inscription "I'm only wearing this to cover to cover some [email protected]%%er arse" or words to that effect on the back...
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 08:10
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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All roadworkers have to wear Hi-Viz jackets or vests with 2 vertical and 2 horizontal reflective strips these days. They also changed the rules last year that the vests must also have sleeves with a reflective band on the wrist. Maybe the guys with sleeveless vests were losing too many arms !

Our company carries out work on the rail network where the Hi-Viz colour is orange and hard hats are blue.
I was told, from a senior source, that the reason for orange and blue was to ensure that train drivers did not mistake them for traffic signals. They assume that your average train driver cannot distinguish between a guy in a green jacket and a green signal or a guy in a red hard hat and a red signal ! This rule is also applicable if your are surfacing a Train Station car park. You will be ejected from site if you are wearing a green Hi-Viz jacket instead of orange.

Tarman
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 09:44
  #26 (permalink)  
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They Have Their Uses...

How many a/c on the ramp are taxiing at line speeds of 50 mph and are equipped with horns to warn errant crew members on the ramp?
Back in the days of the three day week I was working on VC10 Line at Brize Norton. To save electrickery the pan lights were turned off on any pan not occupied by an aircraft. There was an empty pan outside Line Servicing Squadron and three of us were walking across it to an aircraft over the way. In our traditional "Liney" outfits of khaki parkas and trog boots. An aircrew bus came charging onto the pan from behind us still on sidelights from the well lit road and hit the chap to my left. He was new to the squadron and this was his first night shift. The injuries were massive and left him brain damaged and paralysed down the left side, a totally ruined life.

A Hi-Vis Vest would have made all three of us very visible to the bus driver. I have one in my car, in the driver's door pocket, just in case I have to get out on an unlit road one night...
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 10:00
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Never quite understood why some folk find the wearing of this light weight and extremely easy to don piece of safety gear to be such a hardship.

To argue that it does not make you more visible is plain daft so whats the problem
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 10:01
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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They're good at night and in reduced visibility, and also good in environments like freight sheds where there are loads of forklifts whizzing around. I just object to being made to wear them in the middle of deserted areas and in broad daylight. I also think they make pedestrians very complacent; "I'm wearing my vest so I can absolve my brain of its usual life preseving duties."

I have one in my car, in the driver's door pocket, just in case I have to get out on an unlit road one night...

So do I, actually, but it's my choice when to wear it. I think the heavy handed approach many operators use (via the goon squad) is the real issue that annoys people.

I mix with a number of roadworkers
(being such a classy gal ) and they all say that on major motorway works, often the only thing that saves them from death / injury is the cop car that accompanies them. An alarming number of psycho drivers take a delight in trying to run them over, throwing stuff at them (including a tin of soup, according to one bemused labourer ) and other feral behaviour. I get cross when people write in to the paper complaining about police 'wasting their time' at roadworks. Don't blame the the delays on the dude doing the digging!
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 10:44
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Back in the days of the three day week I was working on VC10 Line at Brize Norton. To save electrickery the pan lights were turned off on any pan not occupied by an aircraft. There was an empty pan outside Line Servicing Squadron and three of us were walking across it to an aircraft over the way. In our traditional "Liney" outfits of khaki parkas and trog boots. An aircrew bus came charging onto the pan from behind us still on sidelights from the well lit road and hit the chap to my left. He was new to the squadron and this was his first night shift. The injuries were massive and left him brain damaged and paralysed down the left side, a totally ruined life.
Blacksheep, that's a tragic accident and I agree a highviz might have saved the day but all the modern airports I go to these days have marked pedestrian walkways which might have prevented such an incident.

I agree with Worrals in the wilds - am not against wearing high viz when prudent to do so but this "nanny knows best" and the "jobsworth" enforcing it the way they do is what gets to me! As one who has been walking around aircraft ramps for circa 45 years now I think I probably know how to go about it!

Also when I do the odd spot of night flying at the local GA field which is pitch black other than a few runway lights, when I am walking to/from the "apron" I am equipped with a well lit torch and will wave it around if I think a taxying aircraft has not seen me!

However, as the lunatics are now running the asylums I doubt whether we will see any common sense return until we have a revolution.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 10:47
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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A swiss pilot was killed a few years ago at MAN when a baggage truck pinned him against a tug. High jinx was thought to be the cause but the three men in the two man baggage truck got off.

For some reason this is often quoted as one of the reasons we must wear hi-viz jackets. How that would have helped the poor bloke I do not know.

At night Hi-Viz vest always a good thing. During the day? Pointless and just makes working awkward.

By the way, a large British Airline has just introduced mandatory wearing of 'protective eyewear' for everyone in engineering whether they need them or not.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 10:52
  #31 (permalink)  
bnt
 
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Originally Posted by kangaroota View Post
Can anyone direct me to a study that proves conclusively that the wearing of high visibility vests enhances safety and / or cuts accident rates?
One should be informed before venting ones' spleen.
Have a think about what you're asking, for a second. If you want a definitive result, it would need to be a controlled study, with a control group.

In plain English: you'd put a bunch of workers in Hi-Viz vests, leave the control group without Hi-Viz vests, and watch what happens. Both groups need to be doing the same thing e.g. working on the same busy construction site. So you go up to a bunch of workers on a site, and randomly pick half of them to wear the vests, and the other half not to. (You can't ask for volunteers, since that could skew the sample - self-selection is a no-no).

I can imagine being one of those guys without the vest. Sure, the jury is still out, the study is still underway, so there's no conclusive proof that I'm more likely to get squished by a bulldozer ... but I don't feel as safe without the vest. That's going to affect my behaviour - I'm going to look twice before crossing the road. So, just by feeling the way I do, I'm skewing the study. Oops.

If you want something to read on safety culture, and the effect of safety gear on behaviour, try this: Risky business: safety regulations, risk compensation, and individual behavior -- Hedlund 6 (2): 82 -- Injury Prevention
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 10:53
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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A mate of mine lost his flight engineer - killed by a catering truck during his walkaround. I suspect the FE would have worn a Hi Viz jacket if he'd known what was coming his way.
With this prescience I'd wear a burial shroud.

Joking apart, as a motorcyclist I would wear anything to make the caged idiots aware of my presence.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 10:56
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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At a certain airport in the UK even security used to monitor wearing of the "high viz vest" and would berate you if you attempted to walk out of their enclave without wearing same, despite the fact that one was only going 200 yds to the crewroom which wasnt practically airside on well marked pedestrian routes.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 11:07
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Every safety notice that I've come across has only waffled on about high visibility clothing and not vests.

I'd suggest investing in a bright yellow hat. Or socks.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 11:09
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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I have one in my car, in the driver's door pocket, just in case I have to get out on an unlit road one night...
It's the law here, one for every seat. Also, they have to be within easy reach, not tucked away in the boot.

Another law, proposed for next year is that all cars must carry a disposable breathalyser. The theory is that if you have been drinking, and are stopped by the police, you have no excuse if you fail a test.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 11:14
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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A swiss pilot was killed a few years ago at MAN when a baggage truck pinned him against a tug.
Similar thing happened here a couple of years ago to a baggage handler wearing all the approved fluro gear. Fortunately he wasn't badly hurt and a few weeks in front of the telly cured his broken ribs. There were no high jinks and everyone involved was horribly upset, it was an accident caused by a moment of inattention by the dolly driver and a bloke in the wrong place at the wrong time.


Ramps are dangerous environments, and whatever you're wearing it pays to look out. The number of infrequent vistors I've seen being inadvertently suicidal would fill a large hall (usually chairbourne division on their yearly 'visit the serfs' trip, where junior chairbourne division won't trust the serfs to look after the senior person properly and decide to march them around on the 'let's not see/hear anything alarming' tour themselves ).

The best was a government operative who decided to duck into a 747 hold while it was being loaded with ULDs, WITHOUT telling the loader. Guess what, sunshine, in the race between a fully loaded can and you...you lose. Dramatically. No fluro vest will save you from becoming sausage mince . Bloke doing the loading went green when I grabbed him and said 'some idiot's just walked in there.' The ensuing explanation to said government moron contributed towards my local reputation as being Not A ing People Person. (sorry boss, it was all true, especially the expressed amazement about said moron's ancestors managing to crawl out of a swamp without killing themselves ).

All the reflective gear in the world doesn't replace healthy situational awareness, which can't be taught in a ten minute induction. I'm sorry to hear about the accidents referred to on this thread; they go to show that the ramp environment is unforgiving and requires 100% attention from all players, both drivers and pedestrians, or bad stuff happens. IMO, forcing people to wear protective gear on windswept, deserted country airstrips only trivialises the issue and fails to address the real problem; watch out, people, and don't rely on your vest!

Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 9th Dec 2011 at 11:28.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 11:14
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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What's the problem in sticking on a hi-viz vest which barely weighs anything? If they reduce just one accident then it's worth having.

I see that a large number of those 'against' hi-viz clothing are pilots, coincidence or not I don't know...

For those that have worked in environments such as the ramp (I'm talking about working on it for 12 hours, not a 5minute walk around) then you'll know yourself the importance and extra visibility a hi-viz vest can give you.

Unlit areas of the airfield on dark and rainy nights can be lethal if you aren't wearing hi-vis clothing, especially if the driver of a vehicle has not proper de-misted his windscreen. It's all to easy to be struck by a baggage trailer etc in the dark.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 11:30
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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I see that a large number of those 'against' hi-viz clothing are pilots, coincidence or not I don't know...
Maybe because it's inbuilt for any pilot to think "safety" at all times - as the comment below says "situational awareness".

All the reflective gear in the world doesn't replace healthy situational awareness, which can't be taught in a ten minute induction. I'm sorry to hear about the accidents referred to on this thread; they go to show that the ramp environment is unforgiving and requires 100% attention from all players, both drivers and pedestrians, or bad stuff happens. IMO, forcing people to wear protective gear on windswept, deserted country airstrips only trivialises the issue and fails to address the real problem; watch out, people, and don't rely on your vest!
Also it takes two to tango - how much "training" do drivers on the ramp have before being let out unsupervised?
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 11:38
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bnt
Have a think about what you're asking, for a second. If you want a definitive result, it would need to be a controlled study, with a control group.
Not necessarily. A historical study on a particular workplace (like the Heathrow ramp for example) from before and after the imposition of hi vis vests would do the trick.
Originally Posted by also by bnt
... but I don't feel as safe without the vest. That's going to affect my behaviour - I'm going to look twice before crossing the road.
.. an argument against hi-vis vests?

In Australia, before I left 10 years ago, the airline had hi-vis vests. One was kept in every aircraft - you walked out to the plane in your uniform, then the person doing the pre-flight inspection would don the hi-vis for the walkaround. As you walked out to the aircraft on marked passenger walkways, it wasn't deemed necessary for that part of your journey, but it was necessary when you walked around the back of the aircraft where the ramp vehicles were working.

As such, if you didn't wear it, it was rarely noticed. The interesting contrast is that hearing protection was issued to everyone - but if you were seen not wearing that, all hell would break loose, as working in a "black" hearing zone produces scientifically proven irreversible hearing damage.

Now I am in the UK, not wearing the hi-vis is seen as verboten, with some jobsworth charging 100 yards across the ramp to tell you off about it - but every working day I see guys unloading the hold under a working APU without hearing protection (and that IS damaging them) - yet no one seems to care.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 11:39
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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I have recently been told that they are compulsory gear on the line and to be honest, they are OK on the ground, but as soon as I climb up on top of the chopper for a turnaround, I find myself getting hooked up on just about every bolt, split pin and sticky-outy bit up there, and there are lots on the S76. And yes, it is correctly closed and not flapping in the breeze....

As usual, the good has a flip side.
At least we haven't yet gone to the state of our neighbours with H&S, the poor sods need to wear helmets when leaving the ground.
It's still taking some getting used to seeing a bloke on top of a Puma in a cycling lid......
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