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Old 19th Jul 2021, 14:26
  #9701 (permalink)  
 
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Whether Max has or had an aggressive driving style is not really important. You have to judge each case individually. He gave him enough space. Lewis didn’t back out and went a little wide. 2 weeks ago they gave penalties for what were clearly racing incidents in my view. Yesterday wasn’t. Lewis was all over a defending Max, he had better exits, straight line speed. But if you want to pass on the inside you have to be on the inside and not a car’s width from the apex. There was enough space for Lewis. Therefore I agree with the FIA conclusion about who caused the collision. Lewis was just extremely lucky to continue his race.
Ok, first off it's a race track, there are no lanes on it and you can use all of the track if thats what gets you fast laps, the fact is most drivers all vary in their racing lines, as was seen by Georges superb qualifying lap.

Secondly, yes Hamilton drifted wide and Verstaffen had seen him because he straightened up momentarily, you can see that in his steering imput, but he then turned in on him knowing he was there.. if a car drift wide towards me, you and anyone else on a motorway you manouever to give him room, you do not turn into him.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 14:29
  #9702 (permalink)  
 
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I don’t think Red Bull or Max would ever consider “backing out” of a similar situation.
He was on the normal racing line into the corner, and left a lot more than one cars width for Lewis.
Lewis was on the inside, well off the normal line, and whilst he was pretty much wheel-to-wheel alongside at one point, by the time they turned in he was sufficiently behind to not expect to make the overtake stick.

Max would always commit to that corner and the stewards clearly thought Lewis should have done more to avoid the collision. He should have hit the apex but it never looked his intention to do so, he was going to push Max as much as he could, and then run him wide off the track on the exit kerb.

Still a racing incident imo, but given the position of the cars and the fact Max was ahead and on the racing line as they both turned, I’d say it’s more on Lewis to have the responsibility to avoid the collision.
I know this is motor racing, but the benefit of the doubt on 50/50s has to be on the one being overtaken. Max already opened the steering to give Lewis even more room. He didn’t then “agressively turn in” to Lewis, he just took the line into a 180mph corner. On the flip side, Lewis did not have a tight steering wheel angle at all, he was always going to run his car half off the track on the exit kerb, which had they not collided, should then have resulted in a penalty for forcing another driver off the track.


I also like the post above find it hard to believe he wasn’t aware Max had been taken to hospital. And if he wasn’t aware, it is partly because he didn’t try or care to find out how he was, and partly blame lies on the team too.
But it wasn’t a dominating win really, he’s lucky it was Bottas infront of him not Norris, otherwise he wouldn’t have won. This wasn’t a heroic drive worthy of celebrations quite like that, he was definitely milking it and even if Max hadn’t gone to the hospital it was a more than a bit OTT.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 15:39
  #9703 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
On the flip side, Lewis did not have a tight steering wheel angle at all, he was always going to run his car half off the track on the exit kerb, which had they not collided, should then have resulted in a penalty for forcing another driver off the track.
If you look at the split-screen on-board shots Karun put on the skypad you would see that Lewis and Max used pretty well the same steering wheel angle through the corner, except that Max backed off & then re-engaged. If Lewis didn't turn hard enough then neither did Max

I also like the post above find it hard to believe he wasn’t aware Max had been taken to hospital. And if he wasn’t aware, it is partly because he didn’t try or care to find out how he was, and partly blame lies on the team too.
Oh get off it FFS! At the time of the crash he asked how Max was and was told he was out of the car and walking away unhurt. Why would he ask again?

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Old 19th Jul 2021, 15:53
  #9704 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
If you look at the split-screen on-board shots Karun put on the skypad you would see that Lewis and Max used pretty well the same steering wheel angle through the corner, except that Max backed off & then re-engaged. If Lewis didn't turn hard enough then neither did Max



Oh get off it FFS! At the time of the crash he asked how Max was and was told he was out of the car and walking away unhurt. Why would he ask again?

PDR
On the outside it’s a bigger radius requiring less steering angle than the inside which was much tighter and needing more.

“He’s out the car” was the only reply. Never an unhurt or a he’s ok.


I guess in your eyes Lewis… sorry Sir Lewis, didn’t mean to offend you, can do no wrong. Perhaps a less biased view might help you see all things better.

I’ve praised Lewis and I’ve criticised Max and Vettel and Rosberg and Lewis’ other opponents when they’ve deserved it. But you seem to think he walks on water and his shit smells of roses.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 16:42
  #9705 (permalink)  
 
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I have to agree with LlamaFarmer.

The car in front has the right to take the racing line. If I understand the rules correctly, it is the pursuing drivers responsibility to make a clean pass, without jeopardising the car in front. In my opinion, HAM knew he was not going to make the apex, as he had the inside line, and would have run very wide. VER would have likely gone into the gravel if giving HAM the room, which contravenes the rules. It had to be HAM that had to back off and avoid a collision, which he didn't, thus the penalty.

It also raises the point, that the two drivers knew they were going to collide, and VER took the view that HAM had to be at fault, and both of their races would end at that corner. Result being equal points (0) fer each driver, but HAM got lucky with no damage.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 17:12
  #9706 (permalink)  
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The car in front has the right to take the racing line. If I understand the rules correctly
Obviously not, as Toto made clear, and provided the relevant regulation to at least the Sky F1 team, if the front axle is over the middle of the car on the outside, it's your corner.

When they entered the corner the video shows Hamilton was ahead of that line - he only dropped back as he tried to back out of the collision.


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Old 19th Jul 2021, 17:34
  #9707 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Obviously not, as Toto made clear, and provided the relevant regulation to at least the Sky F1 team, if the front axle is over the middle of the car on the outside, it's your corner.

When they entered the corner the video shows Hamilton was ahead of that line - he only dropped back as he tried to back out of the collision.
Quite obviously the race stewards disagreed.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 18:20
  #9708 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Obviously not, as Toto made clear, and provided the relevant regulation to at least the Sky F1 team, if the front axle is over the middle of the car on the outside, it's your corner.

When they entered the corner the video shows Hamilton was ahead of that line - he only dropped back as he tried to back out of the collision.
So, the fact he was going too fast to make the corner, and not on the racing line, makes it perfectly OK? I think that is classed as dangerous driving, and not giving consideration to other cars, which I think is why he was given a penalty.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 18:36
  #9709 (permalink)  
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I was just pointing out that the claim that the car in front has the right to the racing line is incorrect.

There are other factors which the stewards will take into account - but all being equal the car on the inside only has to get more than halfway alongside.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 18:40
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
I was just pointing out that the claim that the car in front has the right to the racing line is incorrect.

There are other factors which the stewards will take into account - but all being equal the car on the inside only has to get more than halfway alongside.
I take your point, however he was not on the racing line, and could not get on the racing line. Max was.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 18:46
  #9711 (permalink)  
 
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Not been a huge fan of Seb Vettel, however, much credit to the man for staying behind after the race and helping to clear the rubbish from the stands with the volunteers.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 18:48
  #9712 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
I think there are two things here. Firstly Max is well known for aggressive driving and muscling other people off the track or out of his way. Other drivers don't like being bullied, but won't risk damage contesting a corner with him. On this occasion he was trying it on a driver who wasn't intimidated. Perhaps he could learn from that. But secondly I think both Lewis and Max know that the RB wasn't as good as the Merc at high fuel weights - this had been a bit evident in FP2 (but powder was being desiccated). If you watch that first lap you see that pretty well from the off Max was on the defensive, constantly reacting to what Lewis was doing rather than running his own race because Lewis was all over him. So max had to defend each corner while Lewis could ick his lines, and on pretty well every corner Lewis was able to square it off, setting up a better exit that allowed him to get on the power earlier. If you listen to the Brindle commentary he's constantly referring to how Lewis will be able to get better drive out of a corner that Max had had to defend. The Merc also seemed to be faster on the straight, so it was highly probable that Lewis would have been able to take him with a slipstream down the Hamilton straight at the start of the next lap anyway. I think Max knew all this, and was desperate to maintain his position, and I think his turn-in was more akin to the infamous Shuey take-outs on Damon and Jacques.
The best analysis of what happened so far
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 19:24
  #9713 (permalink)  
 
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Whichever way you paint it the net outcome is Vetstappen sees his Championship lead cut to 8 points and he will, I suspect, be a little more circumspect when trying to “muscle” Hamilton.

I’m hoping this continues to the end of the season, the Stewards could be in for a busy time.

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Old 19th Jul 2021, 20:31
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Here's an excellent comparison shot of Hamilton/Verstappen and Hamilton/Leclerc at the same spot in the corner. To quote Hamilton about his pass on Leclerc:
“He was very respectful in terms of leaving a gap,” said Hamilton. “I got to be somewhere alongside him, he knew that I was there, but he stayed committed and just did a wider line and he nearly kept it. And that was really great racing.

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Old 19th Jul 2021, 20:51
  #9715 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Winemaker View Post
Here's an excellent comparison shot of Hamilton/Verstappen and Hamilton/Leclerc at the same spot in the corner. To quote Hamilton about his pass on Leclerc:


Yeah if by that he means Leclerc went wide off the track.

Leclerc and Max we’re on the same line, the difference was Hamilton was much tighter against Charles so there was the room between them. But the difference was Lewis’ positioning, not Max/Charles.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 22:16
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The difference is that in the top shot (Lewis/Max) Max had already seen Lewis front wheels forward of his mirrors and started turning in , sending a 'back off or we crash' message. In the shot Lewis was already backing off but Max pushed it too far. The stewards assessed it as both drivers at fault, but more on Lewis (in spite of their written advice in their how to judge such an incident) because Lewis should have been able to turn tighter and had a better view of both cars positions. At 180 mph.

As many people have said, watching Max's aggressive defending (retaining his place by putting 4 wheels off the track, which normally attracts a penalty. and weaving, which drivers are warned against.) meant an accident was waiting to happen. Only the outcome was uncertain.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 07:02
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
The difference is that in the top shot (Lewis/Max) Max had already seen Lewis front wheels forward of his mirrors and started turning in , sending a 'back off or we crash' message. In the shot Lewis was already backing off but Max pushed it too far. The stewards assessed it as both drivers at fault, but more on Lewis (in spite of their written advice in their how to judge such an incident) because Lewis should have been able to turn tighter and had a better view of both cars positions. At 180 mph.

As many people have said, watching Max's aggressive defending (retaining his place by putting 4 wheels off the track, which normally attracts a penalty. and weaving, which drivers are warned against.) meant an accident was waiting to happen. Only the outcome was uncertain.
Max actually turned away from Lewis momentarily, to give him more room, before turning back towards the corner. You can’t not turn for the corner, so Max had to turn back towards Lewis eventually, which would have generally coincided with Lewis turning away from Max as that’s where the corner was going.

You can see on the picture Lewis has his tyres over the white line and on the green tarmac against Leclerc, he was nowhere near there against Max.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 08:28
  #9718 (permalink)  
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Personal view. I think Max saw him and relaxed his turn, before tightening again when he saw Hamilton slowing and thought he’d backed out again as he has on previous occasions. He obviously intended to chop across the front of him, perhaps taking out his wing in the process.

Unfortunately for him Hamilton hadn’t backed out, only lifted slightly as he started to drift outwards in order to maintain his line. Which meant that instead of Max’s rear cutting in front, or over, his front wing, his rear wheel collided with Hamilton’s front.

In most cases that has a far worse effect on the front wheel with its delicate steering geometry rather than the rear. In this case Max suffered a puncture and a spin whilst Hamilton suffered a cracked rim which held together. Mercedes have admitted that, if the race had not been red flagged allowing them to change the wheel, they would have had to retire the car.

On such margins are championships decided.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 09:18
  #9719 (permalink)  
 
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My take.
The cars were almost side by side as they braked into the corner. Ham overcooked it a bit and tried to back out, Ver misjudged his turn in trying to shut the door on Ham. Too aggressive and paid the price. Racing incident.
However, due to the nature of the crash and the potential for serious injury, in the heat of the moment Horner spat his dummy out, which is to be expected, Wolff would have done the same. That, had an influence on the penalty. It had to be a 10 sec penalty, and on another day, at another track (EG Monaco) would have been enough to see Ham out of the top three. The red flag was a massive factor. If Ham had had to retire, what penalty then?
In hindsight I think they got it right. We want to see racing, the race fans got the best entertainment and it sets up the rest of the season nicely.
Can't wait for Hungary.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 09:42
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Max turned in initially, saw Lewis is still there. Then he relaxed his steering input to give Lewis even more space. Lewis completely missed the apex. It’s that simple.

Max may be aggressive but so is Hamilton. Max also backed off on a few occasions at the start of the season. The comparison with Imola is completely flawed as Max was on a racing line there. That move in Imola may have been aggressive, but it was definitely a fair move ! And even more important: He didn’t understeer or made a mistake on that move. Unlike Hamilton last Sunday.

Had they both gone off last Sunday it wouldn’t have been such an issue. Lewis was again extremely lucky he could continue his race and get his car fixed during a red flag that he himself caused. His teammate let him pass on team orders. He won 25-0, if you are a Hamilton fan that is great. But it was hardly a “heroic” victory.
But as we all know by now: life is not fair. The gloves are off and we are up for a hell of a season with a lot more wheel-banging.

The downside in the regulation in my view is that if they have to replace the engine RBR will most likely have to pick up another penalty down the season for another engine change. That is only in the best interest of Mercedes who then may benefit even more from this accident.

Toto / Horner are both schoolboys. Helmut is the top bully! Jos is a walking testosterone bomb, just ask his ex gf’s. Max is more mature then his father ever was
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