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Formula 1

Old 6th Sep 2020, 20:42
  #8421 (permalink)  
 
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At last somebody found a way to stop The Mercedes juggernaut.
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Old 6th Sep 2020, 20:49
  #8422 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The AvgasDinosaur View Post
At last somebody found a way to stop The Mercedes juggernaut.
That would be Lewis/Mercedes! 😀
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Old 6th Sep 2020, 23:13
  #8423 (permalink)  
 
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At least Lewis made a point of congratulating Gasly, rather than moaning and groaning..
Sometimes the manner of your losing says much more about you than when you win.
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 06:06
  #8424 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
I still think the penalty was excessive - a 10 second time penalty (without the stop go) or at worst a drive-through penalty would have been sufficient IMHO, but it is what it is and it hasn't affected the price of fish, so we can put it behind us and look forward to the crazy circuit they've lined up for next week!
PDR
Well, in those primitive, boring racing series on this side of the pond, pitting when the pit lane is closed means restarting the race at the back of the pack (or at least behind all the other lead lap cars). So the penalty was rather consistent with other major racing series. They do have the provision that if the driver doesn't stop in their pits - simply continues on at pit lane speed - there isn't a penalty (e.g. the driver is committed to the pit lane when the red light comes on). I don't know if the FIA has that option, but at any rate ignorance of the rules is no excuse - particularly at the top level.

The F1 rule that allows working on the car during a red flag is simply bizarre - no other series I'm familiar with allows that - a red flag means you stop. Period. It's not a time-out to go fix the car.

All that being said, it did turn a boring parade into a great race (well technically half a race).
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 08:30
  #8425 (permalink)  
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Well, in those primitive, boring racing series on this side of the pond, pitting when the pit lane is closed means restarting the race at the back of the pack (or at least behind all the other lead lap cars). So the penalty was rather consistent with other major racing series.
The effective was to place Hamilton 30 seconds behind the pack, as the stop-go takes 35 seconds at Monza.

If he had been been relegated to the back of the grid on the restart instead he could well have finished on the podium, certainly above Bottas and Norris. He eventually finished just 17.245 seconds behind Gasly.
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 09:25
  #8426 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
The effective was to place Hamilton 30 seconds behind the pack, as the stop-go takes 35 seconds at Monza.

If he had been been relegated to the back of the grid on the restart instead he could well have finished on the podium, certainly above Bottas and Norris. He eventually finished just 17.245 seconds behind Gasly.
I don't think he'd have managed that.

In clear air he caught up to the back of the pack very quickly. Made it through the next 10 places of much slower cars at a slower rate, still quickly, but in traffic he was not as fast by any means.

I think he'd have struggled to get past the likes of Ricciardo and Norris, taking a couple of laps maybe to do so.

I don't think 5th would have been unachievable, maybe 4th at a push. But I am not convinced he could have been on the podium if he just dropped to the back instead.
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 10:14
  #8427 (permalink)  
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LF,

They said that as he came up behind Perez..... and Kvyat..... and Ocon - all in the same cars that finished on the podium....
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 11:42
  #8428 (permalink)  
 
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The F1 rule that allows working on the car during a red flag is simply bizarre - no other series I'm familiar with allows that - a red flag means you stop. Period. It's not a time-out to go fix the car.
I agree - it should be suspending the race, not fixing cars, changing tyres or wandering off to have a chat! All these potentially change the suspended nature of the race.
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 12:54
  #8429 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
LF,

They said that as he came up behind Perez..... and Kvyat..... and Ocon - all in the same cars that finished on the podium....
These details are too inconvenient and don't fit the anti-Lewis polemic, so they will be ignored. Like the similar issue that Valtiri couldn't manage to keep his car cool AND overtake, where Lewis was able to find a way of doing both in his trademark "just find the limits of the problem and adapt to drive around it" style*.

PDR

* The last time this slipped was germany last year, but it's still largely the case that he finds strategies to mitigate problems rather than just complaining about them
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 12:59
  #8430 (permalink)  
 
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Meanwhile, what was the gantry LCD telling him?
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...8m40oQpzC.html



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Old 7th Sep 2020, 13:25
  #8431 (permalink)  
 
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I thought it was Olivier Panis winning the Monaco GP who was the last French driver to win a race
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 14:20
  #8432 (permalink)  
 
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Yep - the big gantry LCD is saying "Box, Box, Box!" while a sign that's barely visible even as you pass it says pit lane closed. A sign that from the point where you enter the pit lane is virtually invisible:



Even at the point where you are essentially committed to entering the pits it's almost impossible to see that it's showing "no entry":



Don't get me wrong - rules are rules and it was a slam-dunk. But pit-lane closures are extremely rare in F1, so I strongly suspect (as I said above) part of the lessons learned from this will be some new regulations requiring much bigger, brighter and clearer "Pit Lane Closed" signage and possibly a radio broadcast (at least to the teams).

PDR
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 15:09
  #8433 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
The F1 rule that allows working on the car during a red flag is simply bizarre - no other series I'm familiar with allows that - a red flag means you stop. Period. It's not a time-out to go fix the car.
All that being said, it did turn a boring parade into a great race (well technically half a race).
Under the Rules we used to have (and probably still have) in UK a Red Flag was the end of the race if more than a certain proportion of the laps had been covered and if not it became a two-part race with the results based on the sums of the times/laps covered in the two parts. We could never have used the finishing order of the first part as the starting order for a stand-alone second part like they seemed to do.
Mind you it was theoretically possible for a Red Flagged race to be won by a car that had not covered the full race distance (example available on request!).
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 15:54
  #8434 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
These details are too inconvenient and don't fit the anti-Lewis polemic, so they will be ignored. Like the similar issue that Valtiri couldn't manage to keep his car cool AND overtake, where Lewis was able to find a way of doing both in his trademark "just find the limits of the problem and adapt to drive around it" style*.

PDR

* The last time this slipped was germany last year, but it's still largely the case that he finds strategies to mitigate problems rather than just complaining about them
It's also convenient that you can claim that he would have done it when there is no way of knowing.

The drivers he did manage to overtake were easy ones, and of drivers that pretty much had nothing to gain or lose, knowing Lewis was much faster.
Come up against the likes of Ricciardo and Norris and they had decent points to lose, they can and will have defended hard whereas most of the other overtakes Lewis made were completely unchallenged.


It was great to see someone coming through the pack like that. I wish it happened more because it is some of the only interesting racing for the top drivers anymore.
Without that, they're usually out front unchallenged, Max too far behind to challenge the Mercs but too far ahead for anyone else to challenge him.


I'd like to see them trial one or more 2-sprint-race weekends. Instead of a 90-minute race, two 45-ish minute blasts instead, with a required pit stop. Lighter fuel loads, tyres that should last enough to push for the majority of the race, and with the action that usually happens in the first few and last few laps, with less of the tedious middle stuff.

Perhaps one of them could have a reverse grid order like they do (or did, I don't really follow it these days) with BTCC, with the reverse point selected randomly.


FP 1, FP 2 on the Friday.
Quali on the Saturday morning.
Sprint Race 1 on Saturday afternoon with the random reverse grid.
Sprint Race 2 on the Sunday, with the grid determined by finishing positions from Race 1.


I bet that would mix things up a lot more, make things a lot more interesting for the viewers.
Now someone will come along and argue it penalises the faster drivers and it's not worth qualifying towards the top. I don't care though. I want enjoyable racing, this is a sport, and these days sport is for the viewers entertainment.
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 16:10
  #8435 (permalink)  
 
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Why the time difference between the Giovinatti penalty announcement, and much later the one for Lewis? Was G’s violation clear in some way? Were there mitigating factors for Lewis, necessitating a long debate, I wonder?
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 16:39
  #8436 (permalink)  
 
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The Italian Grand Prix proved to be one of the best races of the year, as Pierre Gasly took a shock maiden victory for AlphaTauri ahead of McLaren's Carlos Sainz.

But the defining moment that triggered the Monza surprise was when race leader Lewis Hamilton was handed a 10-second stop-go penalty for entering a closed pitlane to change tyres. Such a rules breach is deemed a serious offence, and it took Hamilton out of contention for the win on a day he looked set to cruise to victory. Here we look at the background to the incident that changed the shape of the race, and explain the circumstances.

Why was the pitlane closed?

Kevin Magnussen had been battling from the back of the field, after picking up front wing damage on the opening lap that had required a replacement. However, after 17 laps he ground to a halt with a suspected power unit problem on the exit of Parabolica.

After pulling over next to the barriers on the right side of the track, the FIA felt that the best option to retrieve the car was to push it forwards down the pitlane. So with marshals potentially exposed to cars as the moved Magnussen, F1 race director Michael Masi decided that the best option was to close the pitlane and to bring out the safety car.

Why wasn't Magnussen's car pulled back behind the barriers

When Magnussen's car came to a halt, he had deliberately parked it by a gap in the Armco barriers. It seemed logical that the car would simply be pulled back into the hole and the matter dealt with under local yellow flags.

However, Masi has explained that the gap there is not actually big enough for cars to fit through, and is just there to allow easy access to incidents for marshals. "There's some of openings are vehicle openings, some of them are just marshal posts," said Masi. "The ones that have the shorter orange band effectively are only a marshal post, and the car would not fit at that area. So the only safe place to remove [Magnussen's car] was to push it down into pitlane because there was no other opening available."

What warning did Lewis Hamilton and Mercedes get?

When the pitlane closed decision was made and the safety car called out, Hamilton was already in the area of Parabolica. As he came through the corner, two red pitlane status lights on the outside, which are the regular marshalling signal posts, were flashing with a cross. This cross is to signal to drivers that the pitlane is closed. The location of these lights is highlighted to teams in pre-event notes issued by the FIA, so both Mercedes and Hamilton should have been aware of their location.

As Masi said: "The map indicating those is distributed to all the teams in my event notes, and is part of the pitlane diagram. Obviously it is also in what forms part of the race director's event notes, which is used for the drivers' meeting." Further, there are two other warning systems in place to help teams in such circumstances. The software that teams use to monitor the track switches to show the pitlane area in red, while there is also a notification made on one of the official F1 timing pages that the pitlane is closed.

How did Hamilton and Mercedes manage to miss it?

The closure of the pitlane in such circumstances is quite a race occurrence, with the last time it happening being the 2016 Brazilian Grand Prix. Hamilton admitted that he had not spotted the signals, as his focus was on the right hand side of the track and where the Magnussen incident was. Mercedes, in the split second in which it had to react to the safety car, had also not spotted the changes in the software system nor the Timing Page.

As Mercedes boss Toto Wolff said: "We spotted that last minute back home. One of the strategists just shouted into the radio whilst we were entering the pitlane. There was confusion, because you prepare yourself for the pit stop to make it good. Everybody on the pitlane, including myself, we were looking at this situation, and nobody looks at page four [of timing] that the pitlane is closed. We can't see the signs, and this is just a sequence of events that screwed Lewis's race. Not happy, but you have to take it on the chin."

Was Hamilton allowed to speak to the stewards during the red flag?

Hamilton clearly first felt that he had not passed any signal telling him that the pitlane was closed. So during the red flag interruption triggered by Charles Leclerc's sizeable accident, he took it upon himself to go and see the stewards and find out what had happened. After the two light panels showing the crosses were pointed out to him, he accepted that he had made a mistake and put the matter behind him.

Some have suggested that it seemed slightly strange for Hamilton to be able to speak to the stewards in such a way, but the FIA is always open for discussions with competitors if they have issues they want to talk about. As Masi said: "There's nothing stopping it, and thankfully we don't have too many red flags. The stewards, like everyone, have very much an open-door policy. If someone has got a question, they can ask."

Was Hamilton's 10-second stop-go penalty too harsh?

The sanction handed down to Hamilton is the most extreme in-race time penalty that can be given. Indeed, it dropped him from the race lead to well behind the back of the pack when he took it. While some have suggested that such an extreme penalty may not have been justified considering Hamilton had not gained that much from the stop, the scale of the penalty is actually mandated in the rules.

Article 28.14 of the Sporting Regulations that covers the pitlane closure states: "A penalty under Article 38.3(d) (which is a 10-second stop-go) will be imposed on any driver who, in the opinion of the stewards, entered the pitlane for any other reason whilst it was closed." As Masi said: "The simple part is that there is no flexibility within that. The stewards had a mandatory penalty that they must apply."

The stop-go penalty was put in the rules after the 2016 Brazilian Grand Prix when Daniel Ricciardo entered the closed pits and was handed just a five-second penalty. Some teams felt that the time loss was too little, as more time could be gained from being able to change tyres at a moment when the pits were officially closed than lost through having the penalty added on at the end of a race.

Teams are also regularly consulted by the FIA over whether or not they agree with the scale of the penalties that are handed down for certain offences. As Masi said: "All of the mandatory penalties were actually gone through one by one with all of the team sporting directors last year, to see those that we collectively felt needed to be changed, versus those that had to stay in. The sporting directors unanimously agreed they had to stay. All of the teams are well and truly familiar with the mandatory penalties within the sporting regulations."
From Motorsport.com

The key questions about the Hamilton closed pit penalty
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 17:02
  #8437 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jolihokistix View Post
Why the time difference between the Giovinatti penalty announcement, and much later the one for Lewis? Was Gs violation clear in some way? Were there mitigating factors for Lewis, necessitating a long debate, I wonder?
AIUI the Giovinatti one was that bit later when there was absolutely no doubt that the signals boards had been shown. Bit Hamilton passed the first board only a second or so after the cross was shown, and the stewards wanted to look at camera evidence to be absolutely certain that he has been in a position to see both boards - had the video shown that the first marker board came on at a time when he'd only see it for a second or so then he would probably have been deemed legal. I gather the stewards guidance doesn't cover what a minimum time to see the board might be, so they spent time looking for previous decisions before making a ruling. That's what took the time.

PDR
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 17:55
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Meanwhile, what was the gantry LCD telling him?
Yep - the big gantry LCD is saying "Box, Box, Box!"
DC mentioned that the big green gantry LCD is just part of the entertainment system, so it's not relevant to controlling pit lane entry. But it did seem confusing at the time!
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 19:26
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Could have been that Hamilton's attention was on the right hand side of the track. Would it be impossible to have a "No Entry" sign just before or at the point where the pit slip road begins?

Pity Hamilton didn't have MrsVJ next to him when he missed the sign like I did on a three lane side of a highway when I missed a lane sign in the far lane and pulled out to overtake approaching a "road narrows"
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Old 8th Sep 2020, 00:07
  #8440 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Yep - the big gantry LCD is saying "Box, Box, Box!" while a sign that's barely visible even as you pass it says pit lane closed. A sign that from the point where you enter the pit lane is virtually invisible:

PDR
I sure hope a driver of Lewis's caliber doesn't base his decision making on an advertising banner video display...
Maybe F1 needs to take a look at how those primitive racing series on this side of the pond do it - with a big red light right at the pit entry - if the red light is on the pit lane is closed...

Oh, and while I'm on the subject of video displays, am I the only one who thinks those huge video displays showing some fan cheering on their favorite driver are annoying and childish?
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