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Formula 1

Old 14th Jun 2019, 10:18
  #7381 (permalink)  
 
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Formula 1's rules dictate that this sort of penalty is not subject to a right of appeal, teams can ask for it to be reviewed providing a "significant and new element" is discovered that was not previously considered.


So correct, they are not now appealing Vettel's penalty. But they can't anyway.
They do have a right to review though which they are considering still
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 11:46
  #7382 (permalink)  
 
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I must admit I haven't watched an F1 race for a few years now, but I was very keen back in the 90's and 2000's

I did have a wry smile though, all the Ferrari fans complaining about the penalty should look to their history books. I seem to recall a certain M Schumacher being given a pit penalty and the team delayed and delayed and delayed before finally bringing him in for the penalty. He was leading at the time, he came in for the penalty at the end of the last lap and to get to the Ferrari garage he had to cross over the finishing line, effectively winning the race before he served his penalty.

There was a period when McLaren were fighting Ferrari and Ferrari had the upper hand through at times some very devious tactics, so the modern fans should take it in good spirit and wait for the time when the prancing horse again has the upper hand....
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 12:43
  #7383 (permalink)  
 
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I'm guessing that would be the 1998 British GP, and it was a bit more complicated than that due to contradictions and ambiguities in the rules.The race itself had been litered with accidents and incidents due to heavy rain and cars spinning, but when it restarted after a safety car the Stewards issued a late penalty for overtaking under the SC. It then just got silly - to quite from the wiki article:

"However, two laps from the finish, Schumacher was issued with a stop-and-go penalty for passing Alexander Wurz under the safety car on lap 43. He had to come in to the pits within three laps to serve his penalty, which he did by entering the pit lane on the final lap of the race, but in doing so he crossed the finish line, which extends across the pit lane, before reaching his pit box, and won the race possibly without having served his penalty. His team argued that the penalty should have been issued within 25 minutes of the incident but instead they were informed after 31 minutes. They also argued that the hand-written notification was unclear as to which penalty was actually being issued: a stop-and-go, or a 10-second addition to Schumacher's race time. The stewards then decided to apply the 10-second addition, post-race. However, the added time penalty can only be used to punish an infraction in the last 12 laps of a Grand Prix, and so did not apply here. The stewards eventually rescinded the penalty altogether. A protest was lodged by McLaren-Mercedes who felt Ferrari cheated by not having Schumacher serve the penalty, but this was rejected by the FIA. As a result, the three stewards involved handed in their licenses at an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Council".

This basically happened because the rules were ambiguous about when a stop-go penalty was deemdd "complete" (ie at the end to the "stop" or at the point where the car rejoins the track afterwards), and due to some procedural errors by the stewards. This ambiguity has been clarified and under the current regs any penalty issued in the last (IIRC) 12 laps is a pure time penalty - up to 30 seconds. Stewarding precudres are now more objectively applied as well.

Rules can only be tested in races, and shortcomings then get addressed. That's the normal process for most things in life...

PDR
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 19:27
  #7384 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula-one/48669261

So Ferrari have lodged a 'right to review' for Vettel's penalty. Clearly they read the rules and realised that an in-race time penalty cannot be appealed, so are hoping that 'in the interest of the sport' the FAI will give drivers in red cars the right to run other cars off the road. One wonders what new and compelling evidence (the basis for lodging the review') they have.

Popcorn, anyone?
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 21:03
  #7385 (permalink)  
 
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I am at a loss to think what significant new evidence Ferrari believe they have.
Anyone any idea?
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 21:57
  #7386 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blues&twos View Post
I am at a loss to think what significant new evidence Ferrari believe they have.
Anyone any idea?
Only Team continously in F1 from the start?

Except the flouncing off in a huff and racing in white/blue colours a couple of times.


'a
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 11:00
  #7387 (permalink)  
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...ferrari-review

The evidence and arguments behind Ferrari's F1 penalty review push
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 07:38
  #7388 (permalink)  
 
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...and to no one's surprise the review upholds the penalty.

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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 08:25
  #7389 (permalink)  
 
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But, as we said here clearly at the beginning, this was a 50-50 decision which could have gone either way, with merits on both sides. Most drivers would probably have done the same as Seb, as Hamilton said, and taken the penalty for it. Just a pity it had to happen so late in the race when everyone was standing on their chairs. Better luck next time Seb!

Lewis nearly got slapped with something similar yesterday in France, but common sense seems to have ruled all round. Thanks to Max for his understanding.
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 12:09
  #7390 (permalink)  
 
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I guess they should take RACING of the track in F1's, as apparently racing is no longer allowed.

This was clearly a racing incident, there was a wall there, that formed a part of the track, sure if there was no wall there Lewis would probably have managed to get passed, equally if it was not real grass there, and tarmac instead, Vettel would have got away easily instead of having to fight to save the car.

If anyone believes that Vettel at whatever speed he was doing 170 - 180 mph took calculated to move to block of Lewis in a split of a second, while at the same time making sure not crashing into the wall or spinning around, clearly don't have a clue.

Fair enough Lewis took a chance when he saw the gap, but he equally understood the gap was closing in, that's why he did not push trough. The Wall was getting closer, so he backed off. Was Vettels car under control when Lewis backed off?

Sure there is some rules about rejoining the race, equally there are rules of what is deemed racing incidents. If they are hell bent to kill of Racing, than they can continue to implement such rules, and ruin the race for the public, as the main one to suffer in this are the general public who wants to watch a car race.

None of the drivers on the grid agree with the penalty, unless you are a Mercedes fan who don't like racing, you will not agree either with this penalty. I believe Lewis own reaction after the race said it all, he was ashamed of the way the victory was decided, I don't blame him for moaning on the radio, they all do that, and his moan was not what made the decision.
The stewards with their decision destroyed the rest of the race, and that should be of greater concern for F1. Drivers swerving between glory and disaster in a split of a second, public wanting to watch racing, everyone looses, as we know F1 the last few seasons with few exceptions, have been a bore to watch.

So you can reference as much as you want to the rule book, unless common sense can also be used, than F1 is on the way to a slow painful death. Drive, but don't try to race, as if you make a "mistake" / "error", you will be punished and loose the race.
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 12:47
  #7391 (permalink)  
 
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If anyone believes that Vettel at whatever speed he was doing 170 - 180 mph took calculated to move to block of Lewis in a split of a second, while at the same time making sure not crashing into the wall or spinning around, clearly don't have a clue.
The people who 'don't have a clue' aren't the ones paid millions of pounds for their ability to do exactly that. Also, a few minor points, he was doing around half the speed you quote, having braked for the chicane (unsuccessfully) and it was a (very) few seconds. If you want to turn a car, do you accelerate as fast as possible, if so, why do drivers slow for a corner. He remained sufficiently under control to end up precisely on the edge of the track, forcing Hamilton to brake and steer off the track (in the same 'split of a second') to avoid a crash. The evidence the stewards saw was Vettel opening up the steering to move to his right, and that made it an inevitable penalty..



For any other pair of drivers, it would have been at least the same penalty - maybe even a drive through. The only reason this has dragged on for two weeks, and Ferrari making themselves a laughing stock with their review demand, is that it neutralised an exciting battle, incensed Ferrari fans and Vettel's childish histrionics afterwards. Get over it.
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 13:42
  #7392 (permalink)  
 
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Move over everyone, Quali is about to start. The Ferrari looks good, in Leclerc's hands anyway, and Bottas has the bit between his teeth. Lewis does not look comfortable in the car. Red Bull will need to pull their fingers out. McLaren going great guns recently... talent bubbling up?

PS Paul Ricard seems rather featureless, or is it just me? Perhaps this circuit can help even out the field?
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 14:17
  #7393 (permalink)  
 
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For me, what cliched it was Vettel turning his steering wheel to the right as he rejoined the track. Had he kept left, then even if Hamilton had been blocked, it would have been fair. By turning right, Vettel was clearly set on impeding Hamilton and deserved the penalty.
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 15:38
  #7394 (permalink)  
 
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Once again Lewis showed himself to be the more complete driver - the only one who improved his time in the gusty conditions for the final Q3 run. Both Lewis and Valtiri lost the backbend in the penultimate corner, but Lewis was half a second up by that point as well as getting it back more quickly.

Big applause to Maclaren, getting both cars onto the third row, ahead of both a Ferrari and a Red Bull.

Pundits are suggesting it could be an interesting tactical race because the new pit lane layout is too slow to risk a 2-stopper, but even going medium-hard may not stretch to the whole race.

PDR
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 19:13
  #7395 (permalink)  
 
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Just make them use each type of rubber during the race......
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 19:50
  #7396 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
Just make them use each type of rubber during the race......
They already do - at least they have to use a minimum of two tyre types (unless it is declared to be a wet race at any point). Forcing a minimum of two stops would be controversial, and would see many races where drivers were forced to use tyres that were dangerously unsuitable for the circuit.

PDR
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Old 23rd Jun 2019, 00:19
  #7397 (permalink)  
 
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The manufacturer provides different compounds for each circuit,so it should force the teams to rethink strategy; Let them also mix-match compounds front-rear;;;works for bike racing......
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Old 23rd Jun 2019, 06:26
  #7398 (permalink)  
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The manufacturer provides different compounds for each circuit,so it should force the teams to rethink strategy; Let them also mix-match compounds front-rear;;;works for bike racing......
Forbidden under the rules (24.4).

......”Any driver who uses a set of tyres of differing specifications during the race may not complete more than three laps on this set before changing them for a set of tyres of the same specification. A penalty under Article 38.3(d) will be imposed on any driver who does not change tyres within three laps“.........
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Old 23rd Jun 2019, 06:54
  #7399 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
The manufacturer provides different compounds for each circuit,so it should force the teams to rethink strategy
What, having to use three compounds rather than two? The only thing it would "force" would be another artificial pit stop. Really not seeing what this would achieve - can you explain in more detail?

Let them also mix-match compounds front-rear;;;works for bike racing......
Other than increasing cost and complexity to further bias the whole gig towards the big, well-funded teams, what would that achieve? Please explain in more detail.

PDR
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Old 23rd Jun 2019, 08:08
  #7400 (permalink)  
 
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Why not just do away with all the tyre regs and just let them RACE?
We already know they can do 4 tyres in under 3 seconds...buts its a race not a tyre changing contest!
Too many races won (or lost) in the pits..
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