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Formula 1

Old 12th Jun 2019, 05:25
  #7361 (permalink)  
 
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Please find me a former driver who thinks the penalty was justified - not an airchair "expert" - because I've yet to hear one
How about a former world champion - who raced under a German flag?






or:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/48583803

Last edited by clareprop; 12th Jun 2019 at 05:42.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 07:45
  #7362 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
PDR, it's painfully obvious you've never raced.
Oh do get off it - that's not only inaccurate it's offensive - stop making a public prat of yourself! Your previous remarks claiming wind-tunnel testing only looks at straightline cases show just how little experience of real F1 you've ever been close to.

Please find me a former driver who thinks the penalty was justified - not an airchair "expert" - because I've yet to hear one.
What's an "airchair"? Better an airchair than an airhead...

But let's see - there is Jolyon Palmer, a fairly recent former F1 driver, and then there's Alex Wurtz who is only the Chairman of the Grand Prix Drivers Assoc (clearly not a driver of your eminence, and one without your crushing skills as a keyboard warrior!), not to mention Nico Rosberg (former world champion) whose blog says much the same. Oh, and of course there are the stewards themselves - people with real expertise in the field (one of them an eminent driver) rather than just walts.

PDR
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 08:43
  #7363 (permalink)  
 
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I missed seeing this race. For once, a bit of excitement!

The stewards' decision did not "ruin an exciting race," except for allowing Hamilton to back off after it, to just shadow Vettel, staying within 5 seconds of him in order to secure a win. Otherwise I suppose he would have kept Vettel under pressure until he probably made another mistake. I think it would have been that or else that Hamilton either did manage to pass him or else tried his very best to do so.

Nico summed it up rather neatly: it was an unsafe re-join after having left the track. It does not matter whether Vettel was a bit out of control, or else that he simply shut the door on Hamilton. (Look at the angle of the front wheels on the Ferrari throughout, to see if that looks like someone struggling for control on dirty tires.)

All the theatrics that followed ... just ask yourself what would have happened had the situation been the reverse, Hamilton crowding an overtaking Vettel. Would Scuderia Ferrari and all its tifosi have said, "No, that would be no fair to Hamilton; he deserved the win, so give it to him instead."?

I think that should have been the cue for Ferrari to put their hand up, to say, "It's a fair cop, Guv," and point out instead how they were suddenly right back in contention from looking a bit lost. They missed a good chance to be positive and celebrate real success; instead they and Vettel came off looking like a mob of typical, screechy, moaning Spaghetti-benders plus one very childish Box-head. If Formula 1 really is a sport, then they should show some sportsmanship.

Last edited by chuks; 12th Jun 2019 at 09:34.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 09:04
  #7364 (permalink)  
 
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I now await 5 second penalties for everyone who returns to the race track sideways, backwards etc after a spin. Only then will I accept that rules are applied equally and consistently. Not that I watched the race, but it seems to me that the first reaction of LH to get on the radio and moan may have been instrumental in the decision to review the non-incident
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 09:42
  #7365 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
...Not that I watched the race, but it seems to me that the first reaction of LH to get on the radio and moan may have been instrumental in the decision to review the non-incident
I would hope that the stewards are rather more savvy than that.

Whatever opinion of the decision, pretty much everyone seeing the incident must have thought "Ooooh... That was close", so not entirely surprising it was investigated, radio call or not.

​​​​​​Hamilton and Mercedes were completely blameless for Vettel's error and the stewards' subsequent decision.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 09:49
  #7366 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
I now await 5 second penalties for everyone who returns to the race track sideways, backwards etc after a spin. Only then will I accept that rules are applied equally and consistently. Not that I watched the race, but it seems to me that the first reaction of LH to get on the radio and moan may have been instrumental in the decision to review the non-incident
As Wurtz pointed out in patiently explained detail, the stewards's decisipon on both the offence and the penalty were absolutely based on precedents set in previous races, so they are clearly, domsontrably and unequivocally applyoing the rules as they atre written. People may not like the consequence of this rule, but I poiunt outr (again) than many of those having panty-rants at the moment have p[reviously slagged off all and sundry for failing to apply the rule about leaving the track and gaining advantage to cases where someone left the track to *maintain* an advantage (which also happened here).

Vettel needs to win his battles through driving skills and performance, rather than by rousing rables and brainless lynch mobs or wannabes and walts.

PDR
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 10:01
  #7367 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Oh do get off it - that's not only inaccurate it's offensive - stop making a public prat of yourself! Your previous remarks claiming wind-tunnel testing only looks at straightline cases show just how little experience of real F1 you've ever been close to.



What's an "airchair"? Better an airchair than an airhead...

But let's see - there is Jolyon Palmer, a fairly recent former F1 driver, and then there's Alex Wurtz who is only the Chairman of the Grand Prix Drivers Assoc (clearly not a driver of your eminence, and one without your crushing skills as a keyboard warrior!), not to mention Nico Rosberg (former world champion) whose blog says much the same. Oh, and of course there are the stewards themselves - people with real expertise in the field (one of them an eminent driver) rather than just walts.

PDR
Actually, Wurz is quoted as saying

"stewards acted consistently in penalising Vettel, a decision that cost the Ferrari driver victory."

The article also goes onto say (my emphasis) "The Austrian - a former Benetton, McLaren and Williams F1 driver and two-time Le Mans winner - said he did not believe Vettel's actions should have incurred a penalty but praised the stewards for acting based on precedent"

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Old 12th Jun 2019, 10:15
  #7368 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
.....it seems to me that the first reaction of LH to get on the radio and moan may have been instrumental in the decision to review the non-incident
I've made this point before, but there isn't a single driver who wouldn't have complained in similar circumstances. If the situation had been reversed, SV would have been on the radio straightaway...... In any case, for an incident like that, involving the first and second placed cars, the stewards review was inevitable

Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
....the non-incident
non-incident......!!!!

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Old 12th Jun 2019, 11:23
  #7369 (permalink)  
 
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There is a rule about rejoining the track after leaving it, and another about forcing another driver off the track.

Dis Vettel leave the track completely? Obviously, yes.

Did he obstruct another driver when returning to the track? Yes, Hamilton had to brake to avoid a crash.

Did he leave a cars width between his car and the edge of the track? No, he neatly went precisely to the edge of the track, forcing Hamilton off.

Could he have avoided any of the above? As he was under maximum acceleration, he could not turn more to follow the track as required - but that was his own choice.

The stewards, by precedent, had to agree the rules were broken, and applied the minimum penalty (again by precedent).

Nothing to see here, Hamilton admitted he would probably have done the same under the same conditions, (and expected the same penalty)

Vettel was undoubtedly aggrieved - but not for making the mistake that led to the incident, and thereby losing the race. The fans felt cheated out of a Ferrari win. There has been a great deal in the history of F1 in bending the rules to suit Ferrari, it's nice to see things have changed since the era of Balestre and Mosely.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 11:33
  #7370 (permalink)  
 
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Why have my last two posts been deleted from this thread?

PDR
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 11:58
  #7371 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
I watched the race, but it seems to me that the first reaction of LH to get on the radio and moan may have been instrumental in the decision to review the non-incident
If you listen to the radio channels (a facility available on the Sky coverage) you will find that ALL drivers "get on the radio and moan" about every single thing all the time - only a tiny fraction of this is subsequently broadcast by the on-track TV producer of each race. ~99% of these "moans" are ignored by the stewards. The stewards must initially look at any and every case where a car leaves the track to decide whether there is a case to be reviewed in detail - this is a large part of their role. On transgressions of safety rules the stewards alone determine whether something warrants investigation - you cannot trigger a safety-rlated investigation with a protest from a team (that's just the way the procedures operate).

PDR
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 12:32
  #7372 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clareprop View Post
How about a former world champion - who raced under a German flag?




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gykAh22nbM&t=436s


or:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/48583803
The World Champion that should never have been, talk about Hamilton being robbed by his own team for the title.
Rosberg is probably the most undeserving World Champion of ALL time in F1. No wonder he did not try to defend his title the season after and decided to retire from F1.

Sorry would not listen to word this guy has to say about F1.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 12:39
  #7373 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry would not listen to word this guy has to say about F1
Please don't take the trouble to apologise, I was only responding to a request by tdracer.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 13:28
  #7374 (permalink)  
 
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Clareprop, I was really impressed by Nico's video above. Many thanks for posting that.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 17:58
  #7375 (permalink)  
 
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You're very welcome. It is the only Youtube channel that I am subscribed to and I have to say, Rosberg is fast carving out a niche interviewing some top F1 names behind the normal driver voxpops. His latest is with Stefano Domenicali the ex- Ferrari F1 team principal and now CEO of Lamborghini. Worth a watch if you have the time.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 23:08
  #7376 (permalink)  
 
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I've just watched the Ted Kravitz and Rob Smedley mid-week review, a large part of which was devoted to the Stewards' decision. Rob didn't show any doubt whatsoever. In his view it was the correct decision and the correct penalty. He explained the rule, the options and showed the precedents. But then what would he know...

PDR
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 23:15
  #7377 (permalink)  
 
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I can't help thinking that back in the day of the late Charlie Whiting, whom I detested, lots, he would have simply got on the horn to Mattia Binotto and said 'tell your guy to give the place up and then get on with the race'.

And who knows? Maybe Seb would've retaken the position got his win and we'd all be saying 'what an awesome race'.......

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Old 14th Jun 2019, 00:15
  #7378 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately there seems to be little room for common sense nowadays, packapoo...
I was watching the race with Japanese commentary (all I can get here) and the two 'experts' were really deflated at the decision, as if the whole thing had left an unsavoury aftertaste, in what otherwise would have been as you say, an awesome race.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 07:44
  #7379 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jolihokistix View Post
Unfortunately there seems to be little room for common sense nowadays, packapoo...
I was watching the race with Japanese commentary (all I can get here) and the two 'experts' were really deflated at the decision, as if the whole thing had left an unsavoury aftertaste, in what otherwise would have been as you say, an awesome race.
It was still an awesome race - it's just that the determining event happened before the end.

Consider a fiercely-fought wimbledon final which comes down to the final set and one player double-faults due to the pressure and concedes a service break in the first game. They then carry on as before, each winning their own serve, but that double fault in the first game results in a simple 6-4 win in the final set rather than the thrilling slug-out people wanted. Would people say "well the foot-fault rule is silly and the umpire should have ignored it because it ruined the final"...??

It was a thrilling race in which two top drivers fought mano-a-mano from the drop of the flag [metaphorical]. One driver proved "toppier" than the other and pressured the other into that vital error - that's the very definition of racing. Two cars both competing with their different characteristics - one good on the straights and the other good in the corners. The advantages of each car seemed to balance out, so it was down to the skill of the drivers. One driver maintained skill for the whole race, the other's skill suffered a momentary slip. Isn't that what people wanted?

PDR
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 09:13
  #7380 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps not surprisingly, Ferrari have now decided not to appeal Vettel's five second penalty.
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