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Formula 1

Old 9th Jun 2019, 20:10
  #7321 (permalink)  
 
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In circumstances when right is possibly on your side and you can do nothing about the perceived wrong, you can play it two ways. You can be quiet in a pained way and bank the majority support....or you can throw a huge strop and watch sympathy fall away from you.
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Old 9th Jun 2019, 20:29
  #7322 (permalink)  
 
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LlamaFarmer

Very inconsistent penalising from the FIA.
Often I would agree with you, but not in this case, Verstappen last year, and previous others. Rejoin the track in a way that makes another deiver take avoiding action, slam dunk penalty. 5 seconds was the smallest penalty in the book. He has also been given 2 penalty points on his SuperLicence. Lucky that Lewis' reactions avoided a big crash and Seb be given a race ban.

For penalties negating a well deserved win you may have to go back to Spa 2008.....................
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Old 9th Jun 2019, 21:17
  #7323 (permalink)  
 
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Arguably Vettel made a mistake then left the track and gained advantage, so some might suggest he should have moved over and given up the place anyway.

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Old 9th Jun 2019, 22:14
  #7324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
LlamaFarmer



Often I would agree with you, but not in this case, Verstappen last year, and previous others. Rejoin the track in a way that makes another deiver take avoiding action, slam dunk penalty. 5 seconds was the smallest penalty in the book. He has also been given 2 penalty points on his SuperLicence. Lucky that Lewis' reactions avoided a big crash and Seb be given a race ban.

For penalties negating a well deserved win you may have to go back to Spa 2008.....................
Why was this not a racing incident?

Vettel was not in control of the car when he rejoined, Hamilton could anticipate this, and should not have put himself in that position in the first place, unless he agree to do some "hard racing" -
Vettel did not have many options of where he could go, as he was not in proper control of the car, and it is a street circuit, with nowhere to go to avoid crashing into the wall.
A more aggressive maneuver by Vettel would most likely have caused a spin, which could have taken both cars out of the race.

This is supposed to be racing, racing incidents happen. I am not a Vettel fan, however they are killing F1 racing slowly this way.
This is becoming racing without being allowed to race anymore. It's becoming a great bore, only thanks to watching it slightly delayed could I get trough these races, by winding fast forward all the boring bits.
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 03:10
  #7325 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Gosh, this is a tough call. No one likes to see a race decided like this, but on the other hand Lewis forced Seb into an error and was arguably entitled to benefit from it. And on the third hand (assume I'm from Sellafield) Seb clearly didn't do it deliberately.

I don't think there's a right answer to this one.

PDR
Here I am agreeing with PDR1. It looks 50-50 to me, and I think Mercedes were/are in a good position to be generous.

If there was a fault with Seb, it was mistiming his braking under pressure, going onto the grass, and keeping his foot down while on the grass and rejoining the track.
Well done to Lewis for pulling up in time, for that was really very close. Lewis's angry reaction is totally understandable, but the stewards have the advantage of a birds' eye view. When weighed against other similar racing incidents and punishments, then the decision is 'fair' (to Max etc.) but on its own merits and in the absence of a right answer, I would have liked to see generosity exercised.
With the 5 seconds in mind, Mercedes subsequently told him to stay in Seb's gearbox, and I understand the points calculations, but I felt that Lewis should have ignored that and tried valiantly to overtake Seb to make everything right. Perhaps he did.
At the same time, Toto should maybe have withdrawn their complaint. Yes, I know, at the end of the season every point counts, but even so we all want to see a smidgen of sportsmanship in evidence.

Last edited by jolihokistix; 10th Jun 2019 at 07:30.
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 03:43
  #7326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
Often I would agree with you, but not in this case, Verstappen last year, and previous others. Rejoin the track in a way that makes another deiver take avoiding action, slam dunk penalty. 5 seconds was the smallest penalty in the book. He has also been given 2 penalty points on his SuperLicence. Lucky that Lewis' reactions avoided a big crash and Seb be given a race ban.

For penalties negating a well deserved win you may have to go back to Spa 2008.....................
Unlike the Verstappen incident, where he was in control of his car, Vettel was not.

He was on the grass at over 100mph, then as he went over the kerb back onto the track, the car violently skewed a good 10 degrees. He joined the track steering AWAY from Lewis and the racing line. And was unable (not chose not to, but not able within the laws of physics and the boundaries of grip) to control his reentry to the extent the FIA seem to expect.

It was a racing incident pure and simple. He didn't cut a chicane and gain and advantage, as he clearly lost time with Lewis closing up so much, nor did he fail to lose a place by cutting the corner, as had he stayed on track Lewis was never going to overtake there.


All the FIA have done is made another decision that puts drivers off racing. And fans want to see racing.
Yes when recklessness or deliberate dangerous actions cause or have the potential to cause accidents (think Vettel slamming into Lewis, or Grosjean going ultimate banzai across the track in Barcelona), but this was neither of those.

It reminded me of when the FIA have in the past chosen penalties based on who they are not what they have done. Like when Senna was given the penalty for "cutting the chicane" at Suzuka that cost him a championship, yet many other drivers were not.


Lewis is much better for the sport than Vettel is now, and he appears to be favoured by the FIA, it's getting less subtle lately.


What Lewis should have done if he was a real sportsman, rather than his fake sympathy, was either overtake and take the win, or drop back in the last lap to +5 seconds. When he reviews the footage he will deep down admit to himself that he was lucky, Seb deserved the win 100%.
It does rile me just how much Lewis always bitches and moans on the radio about other drivers (he's up there with Grosjean who asked his team to go running to Race Control for being overtaken). Automatic 5 second penalty every single time someone does that and we'd hear a lot less whingeing on the radio.
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 04:04
  #7327 (permalink)  
 
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When Toto says "If we are not happy with the rules because we like harder racing, then the stewards will take another decision because the rule will be a different one. Let's get it right for 2021 so we encourage hard racing and then the verdict will be a different one."

That to me says he is happy they got the win but that the penalty was not just. Was not motor RACING.
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 08:19
  #7328 (permalink)  
 
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My racing days were a million years ago but if the pundits, Brundle Button etc all agree that it was just a racing incident then I have to agree with them. I do not particularly like Vettel and Hamilton even less but this incident does the sport no good whatsoever. As for Toto Wolff and his friends at Mercedes, he and they could not give a stuff about anything other than winning and whether that is a good thing or not I will leave others to judge.
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 09:04
  #7329 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beamer View Post
As for Toto Wolff and his friends at Mercedes, he and they could not give a stuff about anything other than winning and whether that is a good thing or not I will leave others to judge.
Yes, at Ferrari they are so different,
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 10:06
  #7330 (permalink)  
 
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As for Toto Wolff and his friends at Mercedes, he and they could not give a stuff about anything other than winning
I don't believe they act any differently to other team management. For spectators it's a sport, for the participants, it's a very lucrative job.
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 10:16
  #7331 (permalink)  
 
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As for Toto Wolff and his friends at Mercedes, he and they could not give a stuff about anything other than winning and whether that is a good thing or not I will leave others to judge.
Go on, amuse me by citing an F1 team to whom the above does not apply.

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Old 10th Jun 2019, 11:00
  #7332 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
He joined the track steering AWAY from Lewis and the racing line. And was unable (not chose not to, but not able within the laws of physics and the boundaries of grip) to control his reentry to the extent the FIA seem to expect.
If all of that was true, what does the following comment from Vettel which was said just after the incident mean?

If he got to the inside, he got past me
As far as I'm concerned, that one statement shows that he made a deliberate and conscious decision to stop Hamilton passing on the inside by forcing him towards the wall, something that if true, must mean that he was in full control of his car at that point.
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 11:27
  #7333 (permalink)  
 
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The stewards observed that he (a) looked to see where Hamilton was as he regained the track; (b) accelerated aggressively which limited his ability to manoeuvre the car direction safely; (c) having established control deliberately drove to the edge of the track so that Hamilton had to brake and steer off the track to avoid a crash.

It is the third action that made their conclusion about a penalty inevitable. Vettel has previously shown on occasions he would rather crash than let himself be overtaken, he has form (and had his 'road rage' drive into the side of Hamilton at Baku 2017). He really ought to have matured by now.
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 11:59
  #7334 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beamer View Post
My racing days were a million years ago but if the pundits, Brundle Button etc all agree that it was just a racing incident then I have to agree with them.
I respect Martin a lot (probably more than any other current pundit), and in this case he said many things. Yes, in the post-race commnetary he said that we don't like races to be decided in this way. But he also said something along the lines of "we must remember that the rules must be applied the same for every case - we can't decided to ignore them in one case because we don't like what they did to the race".

Martin has also strongly and repeatedly advocated for the "Leaving the track and gaining an advantage" to be applied to cases where someone left the track to MAINTAIN and advantage, which would definitely be the case in this instance.

But I suspect the thing which mostly influenced the stewerds decision was the (alleged - I haven't seen it) telemetry data that show Vettel clearly prioritised planting the throttle to maintain his position over recovering control of the car and avoiding a collision. If the telemetry data do indeed show that then I'm afraid it's a slam-dunk, anda 5sec penalty is probably a lenient sentence. I gather he also got 2 points on his license, so I infer that they gave the penalty as a safety infringement rather than an unfair racing advantage thing.

0.00006 supplied, YMMV, E&OE etc,

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Old 10th Jun 2019, 12:25
  #7335 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
What Lewis should have done if he was a real sportsman, rather than his fake sympathy, was either overtake and take the win, or drop back in the last lap to +5 seconds. When he reviews the footage he will deep down admit to himself that he was lucky, Seb deserved the win 100%.
That's rather unfair.

Lewis didn't run wide. Lewis didn't apply the penalty. And yet he's a poor sport? You could equally argue that perhaps Seb should have given the place up following the incident.

As for Seb deserving the win "100%", that's debatable. Lewis was breathing down Seb's neck most of the race, and it was Seb (once again) who was forced into an error. There's a case for saying that Seb was rather fortunate.

Having said that, I really don't like arbitrary time penalties. Races should be decided on track position.

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Old 10th Jun 2019, 14:56
  #7336 (permalink)  
 
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would the stewards have even investigated it if LH hadn't whined immediately on the radio?
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 15:02
  #7337 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
would the stewards have even investigated it if LH hadn't whined immediately on the radio?
And here we go again.......

Is there a single driver on the grid who wouldn't have complained if the same thing had happened to them......

I'm open minded as to whether SV deserved a penalty, but I'm beginning to find the constant casting of Lewis as the villain in this affair a bit tiresome. He did absolutely nothing wrong on or off the track.
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 15:18
  #7338 (permalink)  
 
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Lewis and Seb are both very talented drivers. But it seems to be becoming clearer that setbacks and problems mess with Seb's head and lead to mistakes, where setbacks and problems just seem to drive Lewis harder and increase his resolve. He had every reason to be unconfident this weekend. He crashed on the friday (which is rather a rare event in itself). Then he was pipped to to pole in Q3 by the clearly faster ferrari. Then he came to thr track on Sunday morning to find his car dismantled while the crew tracked down an emergent hydraulic leak deep in the power unit plumbing. The car was only reassembled a matter of minutes before the pit lane opened with little opportunity for a decent installation/shakedown test. On the run out to the grid his engineers reported anomalous brake pressure readings on the telemetry and he had a slightly long pedal, so his engineers were doing deep maintenance of the braking system (replacement of a balance valve and complete drain/purge/refill/bleed according to some sources). When he finally got in the car the brake pedal wasn't right, but was expected (hoped?) to recover to normal during the parade lap. Then when he set off on the parade lap the car refused to pull away and dropped into anti-stall, so he was at the back of the pack and had to focus on recovering his gid position rather than conditioning his tyres and brakes on the run around to the grid.

After all of that he would have had every excuse to be tentative, unconfident and generally unhappy, but instead he was immediately on Seb's tail and remained there (no mor4e that 3 secs behind) for the entire race, harrying and challenging Seb repeadedly until Seb made a mistake. Those two world-class drivers dogfighting for the whole race was a joy to watch, and Seb defended well. But he was unable to pull away in what was clearly the faster car, and it's looking like Lewis is the more complete, mentally stronger driver. He seems to still be getting better every race, and every challenge just makes him find new strengths and new abilities. Seb, on the other hand, is getting more prone to mistakes, and it would not surprise me in the slightest if he retires at the end of this season...

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Old 10th Jun 2019, 15:36
  #7339 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
​​​
What Lewis should have done if he was a real sportsman, rather than his fake sympathy, was either overtake and take the win, or drop back in the last lap to +5 seconds. When he reviews the footage he will deep down admit to himself that he was lucky, Seb deserved the win 100%.
It does rile me just how much Lewis always bitches and moans on the radio about other drivers (he's up there with Grosjean who asked his team to go running to Race Control for being overtaken). Automatic 5 second penalty every single time someone does that and we'd hear a lot less whingeing on the radio.
Completely disagree.
Vettel made yet another mistake when put under pressure. That was Hamilton tacticand it worked as expected.
He couldn't overtake as you suggested because the Ferrari was too quick on the long straights.
He actually drove extremely well to get as close to Vettel as he did.
To clarify. Vettel made a mistake.
Hamilton was the victim of that mistake.
He did absolutely nothing wrong and should take no blame for the outcome.
Motor racing is big business for Mercedes-Benz. He is only the driver and absolutely should not have dropped back to allow his rivals to take the win.
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Old 10th Jun 2019, 16:56
  #7340 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
He joined the track steering AWAY from Lewis and the racing line. And was unable (not chose not to, but not able within the laws of physics and the boundaries of grip) to control his reentry to the extent the FIA seem to expect.
Watch this video from inside Vettel's car
and you will find that what you posted above is incorrect.

At 18.5 seconds, he drives onto the grass, rejoining the track at 20 seconds. To continue on the correct (and safe) racing line he would need to steer slightly to the left so why at exactly 21 seconds does he turn his steering wheel 90 degrees to the right?, (and if you miss this, just look at his front wheels) a change of direction that does not take him AWAY from Hamilton but directly towards him and the wall?
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