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Formula 1

Old 31st Oct 2016, 08:41
  #5301 (permalink)  
 
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I notice Ricciardo didn't drink out of the shoe this time, respecting how he got on the podium at all.

Liking him more and more.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 09:19
  #5302 (permalink)  
 
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A very strange bit of rules application regarding Max, Seb and Daniel near the end. Max goes off course to retain his position. He is supposed to give the position up by rule. Max knows that but doesn't. This holds the faster Vettel up, allowing the yet faster Ricciardo to catch up and challenge Vettel. Vettel then makes his car as wide as he can. Ricciardo tangles with him but is prevented from passing.

First the officials must consider a proper penalty for Max's refusal to redress, as required by rules. 5 seconds time penalty is decided upon and applied following the race conclusion.

As for Vettel it is decided he is guilty of violating the new "dangerous driving" rule. The rule written specifically for Max (irony alert!) 10 second penalty applied to Vettel.

My opinion is that Max rightfully deserved the black flag for failing to redress his position gain and thereby altering the race between Vettel and Ricciardo. What Max did could also be called cheating.

What Vettel did could be called overly aggressive driving also, but not by much. Ricciardo drove his car into a spot that was not exactly his to occupy as well. I don't envy the stewards.

In the end it doesn't appear to me that justice was served. That's racing...
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 10:42
  #5303 (permalink)  
 
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The modern tracks are a joke. There is no penalty for driving errors - just cut the corners, drive accross the grass, run wide off the track on corner exit - maybe Bernie has a good idea to build walls and stop this crap.

And why build tracks where drivers can run wide, get a better lap time, then have that scrapped because they are deemed to have exceeded the track limits after the event through video scrutiny. Just have a surface outside of the track limits that delivers a natural penalty - like lack of adhesion resulting in a spin.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 11:27
  #5304 (permalink)  
 
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Of course, the run off areas are designed for safety - getting a better lap time is simply an unfortunate consequence of that.
Building slippery run-off areas would be dangerous to everyone - drivers, marshals, spectators.


Jules Bianchi ended up on a slippery run off area.....
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 11:42
  #5305 (permalink)  
 
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Just have a surface outside of the track limits that delivers a natural penalty
A row of spikes as used by the plod to stop joyriders on the outside of the kerbs would suffice. Behind them there can be large run-off areas for safety, but the consequence of leaving the circuit would be a guaranteed slow puncture. Not hazardous, but would then require a pitstop.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 12:32
  #5306 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by westhawk View Post
In the end it doesn't appear to me that justice was served. That's racing...
My views, for what they’re worth.

Max DID gain an advantage. However, in the heat of the moment that wasn’t immediately clear, and David Coulthard, for one, called it the other way. Furthermore, while Red Bull asked Max to concede the position, I don’t think that was an instruction from the Race Director. Under the circumstances I don’t blame him for carrying on.

I like Seb Vettel. But I can’t defend his behaviour. By all means make your feelings known over the radio – all the drivers do that. But once you’ve made your point you just get on with the race and leave it to the stewards to sort out. The foul mouthed rant at the end didn’t cast Seb in a good light, especially the F*** Charlie Whiting comment. As a ‘senior’ driver Seb really should be setting an example. I hope he went to apologise to Charlie after he had cooled down.

Seb also complained that Max was backing him up into Daniel Riciardo. I’m not aware that’s against the rules. Although I can understand Seb feeling aggrieved that he was in that position at all.

Notwithstanding all the above, it’s a shame that the race order was amended by arbitrary time penalties not once but twice. It makes the final outcome seem contrived. Wouldn’t it have been better to have let the original result stand but apply grid penalties at the next race to the culprits?
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 12:37
  #5307 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by david1300 View Post
The modern tracks are a joke. There is no penalty for driving errors - just cut the corners, drive accross the grass, run wide off the track on corner exit - maybe Bernie has a good idea to build walls and stop this crap.

Just have a surface outside of the track limits that delivers a natural penalty - like lack of adhesion resulting in a spin.
Many years ago, this circuit was lined with tyres (set vertically with the top half above ground).



Bernie's idea of a wall?
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 14:54
  #5308 (permalink)  
 
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On Sky Martin Brundel was of the opinion that Max should give the position back because he gained an advantage in track lap time by off-roading. It sounded like Chris Horner's voice in suggesting Max do that, within seconds of the event, but Max chose to wait for race control to decide. See became hot under the collar and lost it in his mouth but kept it on the black stuff well enough. Martin's opinion of the Seb v Riccardo battle was hard but acceptable and brilliant driving from both to have survived.
If the stewards could make the Max v Seb decision so quickly, why could they not do the same with the Seb v Riccardo event. Most unsatisfactory. I would have expected Seb to have cooled down and after his public defamation of Mr. Whiting I would have expected a public apology, not only a private one. However, after the 2nd decision perhaps that is wishful thinking, but Seb does need to apologise.
Was the 2nd decision from race direction of the stewards, or are they the same? I thought there were ex-drivers on duty for such decisions about driving performance.

Last edited by RAT 5; 31st Oct 2016 at 17:14.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 17:29
  #5309 (permalink)  
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I understand that the stewards were prepared to 'let it go', however Jean Todt decided that further discussion was necessary.

Strange, really, when you consider JT's background.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 18:43
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I agree with westhawk - this doesn't seem like justice was served. If Max had played by the rules, the incident between Seb and Smiley would never have happened, yet the final result puts Seb behind the initial instigator...
That just isn't right.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 19:19
  #5311 (permalink)  
 
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If Max should have been penalised for cutting across the grass, then why wasn't Hamilton? In both cases they had no cars along side them when they entered the corner, and both gained as few yards on the cars following. So as Hamilton was not penalised, nor should Verstappen be.

As for Vettel whining he was being backed into Riccardo, what did he expect? This is done in all racing from karting, club racing to professional, it is not against the rules.

After Vettels moaning about Verstappens driving, it was made clear moving under braking would be penalised, oh the irony when it was Vettel then that gets a penalty. As for the rant on the radio.....

F1 carries too many penalties, ditch the drivers steward, 5 second, 10 second penalties and lets go racing. Okay sometimes the drivers will come to grief, but at least they will try to overtake. More drivers like Verstappen please.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 19:51
  #5312 (permalink)  
 
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It's quite clear from various posts that many people don't understand the rules. The 'give the place back' or 'allow the other driver past' rule doesn't exist. It is, however, an accepted way of avoiding the penalty for gaining an advantage by exceeding track limits. Max was slightly unlucky to be judged as gaining an advantage, since the gap to Seb was the same after cutting the corner than before, but the stewards decided he would have been passed if he hadn't cut the chicane. Lewis on lap one wasn't in danger of being passed at that point, losing control at the front of the first corner would probably cause a massive pile-up and stewards gave him benefit of the doubt. As for Sebastian's penalty, all drivers had been firmly warned that changing direction in the braking zone would be severely penalised ( an attempt to calm Max down, which backfired on Vettel when he very obviously did it to block Daniel.)

I'm totally baffled by the penalties in a Rugby Union match, so I can't complain.
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Old 1st Nov 2016, 08:05
  #5313 (permalink)  
 
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Brawn signs contract to replace Ecclestone



https://www.gptoday.com/?fshome


Ross Brawn has already signed a contract to become F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone’s successor.
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Old 1st Nov 2016, 08:40
  #5314 (permalink)  
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Will RB inherit BE's money and women?
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Old 1st Nov 2016, 08:42
  #5315 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Linedog View Post
Brawn signs contract to replace Ecclestone



https://www.gptoday.com/?fshome


Ross Brawn has already signed a contract to become F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone’s successor.
Linedog, you've fallen into the trap of the sensational journalist. It would be much more accurate to say:

Auto Bild Motorsport claims Ross Brawn has already signed a contract to become F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone’s successor.

It may prove to be true, but at this time it is still just a claim.
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Old 1st Nov 2016, 09:04
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If you're anywhere near the stopping points of the London-Brighton run next Sunday you could find entry 415 and ask him yourself.
His Wilson-Pilcher looks like this:
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Old 1st Nov 2016, 09:10
  #5317 (permalink)  
 
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SV got a penalty for being a foul mouthed brat all through the race. It's not the first time. He needs to just shut up and race.
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Old 1st Nov 2016, 09:22
  #5318 (permalink)  
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On a serious note, RB is certainly large enough to fill BE's shoes, but I'm not certain that he is smart enough (I don't mean intelligence but deviousness) to handle the negotiations about circuits.

I thought that Christian Horner was the favoured candidate?
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Old 1st Nov 2016, 09:44
  #5319 (permalink)  
 
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Quite right that Max was penalised for cutting the corner.. drivers are penalised for going outside of track limitations so how can it be correct to cut out an entire corner ? Hamilton equally should have been penalised for the same error. How is it that he can out-brake himself lose control, cut an entire corner that the rest of the field successfully negotiated by driving slower and be allowed to remain ahead ? I wonder if Max V had been in 2nd place at that point and protested Hamilton's move and Christian Horner had lodged a complaint things might have gone differently for Hamilton.
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Old 1st Nov 2016, 11:01
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I know it's "legal" to slow the driver behind you down by occupying the preferred line. But if a driver exceeds track limits while defending against another driver for other than recognized safety reasons, are they not required to concede the contested position in order to avoid penalty?

Following this line of reasoning, Max's refusal to concede the position, along with his continued blocking of Vettel constitutes using a position he had no right to occupy in furtherance of impeding Vettel's progress. Therefore blocking Vettel is a continuation of his rules violation. The penalty should have been an immediate stop & go penalty at the minimum. Blocking might be allowable under the current rules when you legitimately hold the position, but under the circumstance of holding the position as the result of violating a rule, I think not.

Obviously the officials have a tough job in applying rules and penalties in real-time race conditions. But following the conclusion of the race, they should have at least made Max's penalty much more punitive in consideration of the above.

The Vettel infraction was close enough to see either way. I agree it's possible that the penalty may not have been issued had Seb been a little more circumspect in his on-air commentary. However the proper way to deal with participants who publicly (team radio counts) disparage the sport or it's management isn't to punish them with time penalties affecting their competitive standing in the event. This would be more properly accomplished with monetary or other sanctions not affecting the order of merit for that particular event.

Just to be clear, I can live just fine with what has transpired. I don't own the sport. I'm only a long time follower of multiple motor sport competition series. I would just like to see F1 set a better example in the area of competitive and corporate integrity.

P.S. I like the idea of the "slow leak" quills! (tire spike strips)
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