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Formula 1

Old 18th Jul 2015, 09:37
  #4241 (permalink)  
 
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TheiC, I think I understand where you are coming from.

All the holes in the Swiss cheese lined up at that moment.

There are so many ways of looking at it, and sadness may look like a cop-out, but I am not judging anyone or anything, or wishing to argue any of the different positions.
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Old 18th Jul 2015, 13:59
  #4242 (permalink)  
 
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Was ever a P9 place[ at Monaco] so well celebrated?

RIP.
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Old 19th Jul 2015, 09:29
  #4243 (permalink)  
 
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Hey TheIc,

Motor racing is a sport that has risks..even for the spectators it is printed on the tickets at any venue I have attended, your comment that the JB accident was foreseeable, is in my opinion incorrect, racing cars, motorbikes and boats do have strange accidents resulting sometimes in death...we humans get our thrills doing things like that, everytime we drive a car we are putting ourselves in a position of a potential serious life changing possibility, but yet we all jump in a car or any engine powered thingy and set off, we are all at risk but we still do it, we cannot create a Motor sport that is risk free, that's half the thrill and attraction... we can try..TRY to mitigate, however the word accident mean's it was not planned...do we fit all racing cars and bikes and boats with big totally encompassing roll bars bumper bars and cocoon type air bags.... would you like to watch that sort of sport, would drivers like to be in such vehicles.

Jackie Stewart tried to do that in the early 70's, and yet today we see still the same shape and nearly the same noise as I saw at Oulton Park/Silverstone/Aintree in 1963/4/5/6/7 an so on right up to today , nothing in life is risk free...even a fire extinguisher has killed at least one racing driver..so do we ban those to..!
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Old 19th Jul 2015, 10:32
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Originally Posted by Peter-RB View Post
Motor racing is a sport that has risks...even a fire extinguisher has killed at least one racing driver..so do we ban those to..!
And it was being carried by a Marshall, so we could add them in when we are banning things
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 11:49
  #4245 (permalink)  
 
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Peter RB - you are rather gilding the lily with regards to Jackie Stewart's efforts to make motor racing safer - back in the 60's the death rate among racing drivers was appalling - he succeeded in making both the cars and tracks safer without changing the character of the sport.We no longer see drivers burnt to death trapped in cars or crushed under rolled cars.Fatalities do occur from time to time,it is still a dangerous sport but infinitely safer than what it was.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 12:34
  #4246 (permalink)  
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Bianchi's crash was both predictable and yet 'unlikely'.

Predictable in that Adrian Sutil had left the track on the same corner due to aquaplaning.
Unlikely in that, without the JCB that was removing Sutil's car, Bianchi's incident would have been minor and not life-threatening.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 18:10
  #4247 (permalink)  
 
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Peter-RB

Like you, I think the 60s/early 70s were the golden days of motor racing but in one respect they were also the bad old days. As we are old enough to remember, it was an era when drivers risked their lives - while earning in their entire careers only a small fraction of what today's top drivers make for one race - and fatal crashes weren't unusual.

I used to race a Lotus 21 in Historic Grand Prix races. It was state of the art when introduced in 1961 – the beginnings of 'mid-engine' design, first use of the reclining driving position in F1, inboard suspension, disc brakes all round etc - and gave Lotus its first works team win.




However, safety features were virtually non-existent.
Behind the fibreglass panels of its beautiful sleek design, there were fuel bags attached to the tubular space-frame structure on each side of the driver and behind the seat.

It was no better/worse than other cars of the era. In those days, it wasn't unusual for a crash to cause a fire and not unusual for drivers to be burnt to death at the scene or die later from horrific injuries.




Did I worry about that when I raced it? No because, of course, 'accidents happen to other people'.
I had a serious crash in Formula Renault at Oulton Park. The car was wrecked but I walked away from it, although battered and bruised. Had I been in the Lotus I would certainly have been seriously injured and probably have died.

14 F1 drivers were killed in the 1960s, including arguably the finest driver in the history of motor racing and my schoolboy hero – Jim Clark.
Thanks primarily to Jackie Stewart's crusade, the numbers slowly came down.
12 drivers died in the 1970s, 4 four in the 1980s and, until now, the last driver to lose his life following a crash was Ayrton Senna in 1994.

The car I raced was ex Jo Siffert. At his funeral, attended by many thousands of motor racing fans as well as drivers, the priest said: "Where there is a risk, there is a death. Where there is no risk, there is not a life." I think there's much truth in that, and am no fan of the 'nanny state' approach to life, but that doesn't mean that sensible safety measures should not be taken.
Like most fans (and many in F1), I was far from persuaded at the time that changes were necessary but, looking back, I have no doubt that Jackie Stewart was right.
F1 isn't nearly as exciting or interesting now as it was in the 60s, but IMHO the reasons for that don't lie in the increased safety measures.


(Not my pics. Mine are pre-digital.)
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 18:44
  #4248 (permalink)  
 
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Good evening FL,

It is a great pity the spectators of today didn't have the benefit to see people like Moss, Hawthorn, Collins, Surtees, Clark, Hill, Jackie Stewart in the 6 wheeler, or Hawthorn throwing the 3.8 Mk2 sideways round corners at full chat, or Graham Hill with his cheeky little right eye wink when in the pits, , we may be old farts and make comments about today's racers, but I feel we in those days saw racing as it should be...near to the track and nearer to death, but done with such great Panache as to be almost in the same mould as Biggles...

some very heady days.. and a few very sad days...but I am so glad that I saw it and didn't just read about it ,

Also the MIghty Chaprel (spelling?) with the aerofoil brake at Le Mans being chased down by all sorts of european sports cars including nearly every Jaguar on the stable forecourt,
some who I saw lose it for ever, Bandini, Rindt, Edwards, so sad, but doing what they wanted to do..!
That really was a treat.. to be there for all of them!

Peter R-B
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 18:48
  #4249 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Peter-RB View Post

It is a great pity the spectators of today didn't have the benefit to see people like Moss, Hawthorn, Collins, Surtees, Clark, Hill, Jackie Stewart in the 6 wheeler, or Hawthorn throwing the 3.8 Mk2 sideways round corners at full chat, or Graham Hill with his cheeky little right eye wink when in the pits, , we may be old farts and make comments about today's racers, but I feel we in those days saw racing as it should be...near to the track and nearer to death, but done with such great Panache as to be almost in the same mould as Biggles...

some very heady days.. and a few very sad days...but I am so glad that I saw it and didn't just read about it ,

Also the MIghty Chaprel (spelling?) with the aerofoil brake at Le Mans being chased down by all sorts of european sports cars including nearly every Jaguar on the stable forecourt,
some who I saw lose it for ever, Bandini, Rindt, Edwards, so sad, but doing what they wanted to do..!
That really was a treat.. to be there for all of them!

Peter R-B
D'accord !
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 19:12
  #4250 (permalink)  
 
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the MIghty Chaprel (spelling?) with the aerofoil brake at Le Mans ....
Jim Hall's Chaparral 2E ?
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 19:17
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And not forgetting that, thanks to 'progress' today's cars are a hell of a lot faster than they were then. Were they not designed to be safer the carnage would be awful.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 21:37
  #4252 (permalink)  
 
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Speak S, thank you, now I remember, when the power was put in it shook and twisted its rear tires it was a brute but the future.

Chris you are quite right of course, as FL stated the early F1 racers were death traps, the skill wasn't just winning it was avoiding all sort of impacts..

But the smell of tortured tyres that had never seen a slick, always with a tread, , when going past the other side of the straw bales you could almost feel the heat in the oil vapour and hear that strange ripping Calico noise that tyres made just on the verge of letting go, plus the whine of straight cut gears.

I live, about one mile away from where David Duckworth lived, he of the famous DFV V8 World beating engine driven to major victories by Jackie Stewart and Jimmie Clark, Graham Hill and eventually many others, Duckworth went on to establish Cosworth with Jim Clark giving them their first victory in the Lotus 18 about 1960 at Goodwood, about 1966 Duckworth got in bed with Ford and the DFV V8 3 litre F1 engine was born, victories for Stewart, Fittipaldi, Andretti, Hunt and Piquet all succeeded to championship level using the Duckworth Ford V8 DFV 8
As prune is a Flying forum as well, Duckworth landed a Brantly Helicopter reg G-AVIP in his fathers garden just up the road from here, knowing the position of that house it was a touch risky at that time to land there.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 22:41
  #4253 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Peter-RB View Post
I live, about one mile away from where David Duckworth lived, he of the famous DFV V8 World beating engine driven to major victories by Jackie Stewart and Jimmie Clark, Graham Hill and eventually many others, Duckworth went on to establish Cosworth with Jim Clark giving them their first victory in the Lotus 18 about 1960 at Goodwood, about 1966 Duckworth got in bed with Ford and the DFV V8 3 litre F1 engine was born, victories for Stewart, Fittipaldi, Andretti, Hunt and Piquet all succeeded to championship level using the Duckworth Ford V8 DFV 8
As prune is a Flying forum as well, Duckworth landed a Brantly Helicopter reg G-AVIP in his fathers garden just up the road from here, knowing the position of that house it was a touch risky at that time to land there.
Mike Costin and Keith Duckworth, Shirley?
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 22:47
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Sentiment's bang on there Peter R-B, but for the record it was Keith Duckworth & Mike Costin who established Cosworth in 1958; Lotus 18 (F1) had a Climax power plant - ok the FJ unit used a 998cc Cosworth.

Snap G-C

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Old 21st Jul 2015, 09:06
  #4255 (permalink)  
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BBC Sport - Jules Bianchi 'would have replaced Kimi Raikkonen at Ferrari'
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 10:24
  #4256 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry chaps I missed the name Mike Costin, who was also a top flight engineer in his own right, the mating of those two minds and abilities created a name that meant Sheer Performance even in the mind of today's youth many of whom would wet their pants at the thought of stealing a Escort Cossie .

but it was remiss of me to miss out Mike Costin, between them they really did make high performance affordable by many, in the Cosworth Sierra, Lotus Cosworth Carlton, Cosworth Mercedes and quite a few others, I think also they developed an engine system for some secret drone system plus many amatuer Rallye cars. plus the DFV engines have 155 race wins to its record, a remarkable engineer from a textile family in Lancashire..!
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 20:08
  #4257 (permalink)  
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According to my local TV news which gave some coverage to the funeral service of F1's Jules Bianchi in Nice today and confirmed by the BBC here:
His car number, 17, is being retired from F1 in his honour.
Flying Lawyer wrote earlier:
14 F1 drivers were killed in the 1960s, including arguably the finest driver in the history of motor racing and my schoolboy hero Jim Clark.
Thanks primarily to Jackie Stewart's crusade, the numbers slowly came down.
12 drivers died in the 1970s, 4 four in the 1980s and, until now, the last driver to lose his life following a crash was Ayrton Senna in 1994.
I guess F1 is lucky that they didn't start this new (?) "way of honouring drivers" back in the '60s or even earlier...?
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Old 24th Jul 2015, 05:28
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In light of Jules's death, Massa comments thoughtfully on safety and the possibility of closed cockpits, etc, in this article, in case anyone missed it.

Felipe Massa says Formula One should consider closed cockpits after Jules Bianchi's death

Quote: "I think if you go back to what's happened to Jules, many things change after that. Unfortunately we need to see that type of accident to understand what happened. I really agree that Formula One changed a lot, especially after Ayrton Senna's accident [at Imola in 1994], and I believe the car is very safe now. We always need to keep working to improve safety - not just the cars, the tracks and everything are very safe now.

"What happened in Japan was a different situation, what happened was something I cannot accept - a car crash into a tractor. It was a race that was a very strange weekend. We had the typhoon, we had people asking to do the race at a different time, the red flag already at the start of the race. It was already a different event. I am sure after that accident so many things changed and people understand that something that happened there is not supposed to happen, so we had some different rules after that for the Virtual Safety Car and if the car goes off the track.
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Old 24th Jul 2015, 10:29
  #4259 (permalink)  
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The only solution to Bianchi's injuries is to prevent contact between cars and heavy vehicles like JCBs.
It was the impact deceleration that was lethal - not any superficial injuries.
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Old 24th Jul 2015, 13:05
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The proximate warning for Bianchi's fatal crash was Maria de Villota's testing accident. You can't decelerate a car via the driver's helmet and expect them to not be horrifically injured or killed. Therefore you have to avoid solid, unyielding structures at drivers head height.
Had the tractor been fitted with an effective skirt to prevent the car "submarining" underneath it then, while still a bad crash, it probably wouldn't have been fatal. Not rapidly understanding the implications of, and reacting to, de Villota's accident is where F1's safety management failed resulting in two deaths instead of one. The tombstone imperative is perhaps just as relevant in racing as in aviation.
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