Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Cuba

Old 14th Jul 2014, 05:28
  #241 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
If you get to the top 1%, taxes are a big problem for you. Or are you kidding yourself again.

The reality is that middle class workers are being reduced from full time with benefits to part time with no benefits - EN MASSE.

Companies who once paid for employee health care are dropping it - EN MASSE.

And this is only the beginning of the turmoil of Obamacare.

We had a system that delivered platinum health care to working people, like me, across the board.

You tell me why if it was good we tossed it away.

Last edited by BenThere; 14th Jul 2014 at 05:47.
BenThere is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 05:47
  #242 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 73
Posts: 508
I dont understand your problem. You write like you hate every flavour of socialism then you complain because socialist health care is no longer available to you.

New Zealand is one of the most socialist countries around. Womb to tomb health care, sickness and unemployment benefits, subsidised housing, free education, universal superannuation and so on. That does not mean people can not make a lot of money as many do (even I made enough for a comfortable secure retirement in a new house). Socialism sucks, I should know!!!!
John Hill is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 05:52
  #243 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
No, it wasn't socialist health care. It was paid for out of wages. It fostered medical advances, greater longevity, and medical security. Obamacare has added negligible numbers to the insured, and raised the cost for just about everyone while reducing accessibility.

You tell me how that is good.

And what if you once worked 40 hours/week at $20/hour with health insurance and now are limited to 29 hours/week with no health insurance? Would you consider that 'progress'?
BenThere is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 05:56
  #244 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 73
Posts: 508
Did Conservatives work against 'Obamacare'? I expect they did and this contributed to whatever problems there might be.

And what if you once worked 40 hours/week at $20/hour with health insurance and now are limited to 29 hours/week with no health insurance? Would you consider that 'progress'?
Of course that is not progress but as a Conservative you do not want progress so what is your beef?
John Hill is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 06:01
  #245 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
Obamacare did not get any conservative votes. It's all on the 2006 and 2008 elected Democrat congresses. They had the votes, got it passed, and now we're stuck with it. Conservatives had nothing to do with it.
BenThere is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 06:05
  #246 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 73
Posts: 508
Conservatives had nothing to do with Obamacare? Seems your lot missed your opportunity and should have had a national health care system in place in the Bush era.
John Hill is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 06:06
  #247 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: not scotland
Posts: 187
A question based on this:

The uninsured rate for people ages 19 to 64 declined from 20 percent in the July-to-September 2013 period to 15 percent in the April-to-June 2014 period. An estimated 9.5 million fewer adults were uninsured.
Do you consider this a good or bad thing?
Toadstool is online now  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 06:21
  #248 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
That would be good. But I question your stats.

Many of the enrollees have been invalidated. Also, many have opted out of being insured. You need to account for the net, not just the accretions.

A lot of people, millions of them, in fact, have lost their health care insurance coverage under Obamacare. Many of them have died because of it.
BenThere is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 06:31
  #249 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 73
Posts: 508
Insurance is not good, insurance is a form of socialist activity where many pool their contributions for the benefit of the unfortunate few.
John Hill is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 06:39
  #250 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
Pooling of risk, the definition of insurance, is altogether different, and unrelated to centralized government Socialism. Insurance is voluntary, to begin with.
BenThere is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 06:54
  #251 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 73
Posts: 508
Insurance is socialist in nature but you don't want to admit that to yourself.
John Hill is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 07:01
  #252 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
No. Insurance is a contract. Socialism is a theft.
BenThere is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 07:09
  #253 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 73
Posts: 508
I knew you would have trouble admitting it even to yourself.

Capitalism has each person pay only for the cost of whatever they choose to purchase. Not more, not less. In contrast, socialism spreads among financially capable citizens the cost of projects or services that a society (or a group) needs in order to function.
Capitalism works best with purchases you alone are free to make as an exercise of your personal freedom. Socialism works best with costs connected with infrastructures deemed necessary for the common good.

Do you believe in emergency services like police, fire, paramedics, military? Emergency services are forms of socialism.

Do you believe in epidemic prevention infrastructures like sewers, garbage removal, water purification, etc? Public health strategies are forms of socialism.

Do you believe in the importance of transportation infrastructure, such as properly maintained roadways, public transportation, and air traffic control? Transportation infrastructure maintenance is a form of socialism.

Do you believe in insurance? Yes, even health insurance, and in fact all insurance, is a form of socialism. Why? Because it spreads costs evenly among everyone in an insurance category even though each individual uses uneven amounts of their health coverage.
http://www.thenewiq.com/integritywat...lism-socialism


If you cant be a good capitalist and pay your own way for everything you would be better admitting you are a socialist.
John Hill is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2014, 11:35
  #254 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Scotland
Age: 76
Posts: 452
The American health care system is a disaster at all levels - people live in fear of ill health as it is the leading cause of bankruptcy in the USA. The system costs 2 1/2 times as much as the British NHS for worse outcomes. Infant mortality,child mortality and maternal mortality are a disgrace to a developed country - worse than Cuba and some African countries. If socialised medicine means more children survive at a lower cost for the life of me I cannot see anything wrong with that.
bcgallacher is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2014, 04:07
  #255 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
bc, the reality, far different from your portrayal, is that most Americans receive a high level of healthcare by virtue of employer-provided insurance. I know I do. I could get a hip replacement or MRI tomorrow if I needed one by virtue of my employer's health care plan.

Millions of us, though, face the prospect of losing that security as Obamacare is implemented and our employers logically opt out of paying for health insurance, either by reducing employee work hours below the threshold where they have to provide it, or simply throwing the workforce onto the so-far dysfunctional government health care exchanges.

Meanwhile, the actual number of previously uninsured who are now ensured is embarrassing to the promoters of government health care, as it is laughably paltry, which is why we don't hear about it.

We got what we voted for.

The examples you cite, John, are all legitimate applications of collective pooling of resources for the common good, which is what governments should do. I would add defense as a key responsibility.

The problems come when you move further along the socialist continuum to where the government assumes responsibility for more and more, and the cost of it goes through the roof, when it must tax the productive soul of the nation to pay for it all. The sad fact is that everywhere government has assumed responsibility for feeding and housing citizens, and providing them with some walk-around cash, removing their responsibility for themselves, general squalor is soon to follow.
BenThere is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2014, 04:22
  #256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 73
Posts: 508
all legitimate applications of collective pooling of resources for the common good...
.. which is what socialism is all about.



The sad fact is that everywhere government has assumed responsibility for feeding and housing citizens, and providing them with some walk-around cash, removing their responsibility for themselves, general squalor is soon to follow.
Yes I know, terrible isnt it...



... basic level 'state housing', NZ 1947.
John Hill is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2014, 05:04
  #257 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
Unfortunately, the record shows that isn't what Socialism is all about. If you take the examples of the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Eastern Europe, et al., Socialism is about subjection at best, mass murder at worst.

So far, its impact on Western Europe and the US has simply been economic stagnation, high unemployment, and insidious decline in general living standards.

Why do people continue to fall for it? That's the conundrum of my life. Particularly when those Socialism purports to champion suffer the worst from it.
BenThere is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2014, 05:05
  #258 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 73
Posts: 508
Unfortunately, the record shows that isn't what Socialism is all about.
But you said it is...
The sad fact is that everywhere government has assumed responsibility for feeding and housing citizens, and providing them with some walk-around cash, removing their responsibility for themselves, general squalor is soon to follow.


NZ is among the most socialist countries on earth so why are we not on your list?
John Hill is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2014, 05:07
  #259 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
Like San Francisco, you benefit from blessings Socialism hasn't been able yet to destroy. But keep trying.

Also, Socialism works in Sweden. You have to consider the heritage of work ethic, commitment of the population to the common good, the overall culture, and other factors. An honest, hard-working population, steeped in values most in the West consider quaint, has a much better chance of making Socialism work. But in the end, failure is assured.
BenThere is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2014, 05:11
  #260 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 73
Posts: 508
NZ has been progressively socialist since the 19th century.
John Hill is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.