Wikileaks - Julian Assange
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 51
Posts: 1,337
This is really the point I'm always trying to get to but haven't made well enough. Truth belongs to all people - not based on the accident of where you were born, class, sex, education or whatever.
Also that technology has changed the game irreversibly. Certainly with regard communication.
Also that technology has changed the game irreversibly. Certainly with regard communication.
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
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Another person who seems to regularly post here has suggested that acts of violence and civil disobedience have increased recently or over a period of the last 15 or 20 years....Nothing could be further from the truth....
The only thing as LT has said that has changed is the level of technology not human activity....
Human behaviour is the same and will always be the same...
It is what makes us the way we are and differentiates us from other species on this planet...
If as a group we find out that we are being tricked,swindled or or at best mislead then we have the tendency to revolt and want change....
This can be done peacefully or if that does not work with more persuasive methods...
This has been done throughout history in small ways such as a protest or in more dramatic ways such as revolution...
The only thing that sets these events apart is that with modern communication we are able to see and hear about them virtually in real time as opposed to reading about them in history books...
I'm sure that if you were around at the time of the Russian revolution and CNN was there to report on it or Wikileaks was there to tell the masses what was happening those complaining about the truth would be saying the same thing....
The only thing as LT has said that has changed is the level of technology not human activity....
Human behaviour is the same and will always be the same...
It is what makes us the way we are and differentiates us from other species on this planet...
If as a group we find out that we are being tricked,swindled or or at best mislead then we have the tendency to revolt and want change....
This can be done peacefully or if that does not work with more persuasive methods...
This has been done throughout history in small ways such as a protest or in more dramatic ways such as revolution...
The only thing that sets these events apart is that with modern communication we are able to see and hear about them virtually in real time as opposed to reading about them in history books...
I'm sure that if you were around at the time of the Russian revolution and CNN was there to report on it or Wikileaks was there to tell the masses what was happening those complaining about the truth would be saying the same thing....
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 63
Posts: 2,355
The ones who are trying to convince you that you are bring duped are usually the ones who have taken you for a ride in the first place....
However,as in life with those who assert a position but then cannot substantiate their case with facts the reality is blindingly obvious....
Sometimes to challenge the status quo is not easy but then anything in life that is important is always worth the risks involved....
You take the course that you know is right....
Nothing in life is free including the truth....
However,as in life with those who assert a position but then cannot substantiate their case with facts the reality is blindingly obvious....
Sometimes to challenge the status quo is not easy but then anything in life that is important is always worth the risks involved....
What're you going to do now?
Nothing in life is free including the truth....
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I fall in with lobe and Bend. The Great White fleet seems archaic, and hackneyed, it is in fact the most elegant expression of the "Pax" ever undertaken. Please at least look at "Prophets of War" by William Hartung. War these days is a function of making the Industrial Machine (of which our military are a supporting Arm) wealthy, as an excuse, we are offered "Make _____ Safe for Democracy".
The expansion of NATO is a ruse intended to support further massive defense spending and the sales of ARMS to our "friends". I have no use for Putin, but I have to say his saber rattling is not without genuine cause. Lockheed has bought out all its competitors with our money, in the form of subsidies and "sales of two of the most expensive Turkeys ever designed, the F-22, and the J-35.
The first attempt to recognize the death of the fighter airplane was fielding the F-4 with missiles only, and no guns. In the 60's for God's sake, the fighter DIED. As stand off missiles appeared, the fighter was looking over its shoulder. No matter, the F-22 appeared to make gazillions on a piece of machinery that is obscenely overpriced, and has NO MISSION.
If Assange can light up the bastards who steal our money by showing us videos of dead soldiers to justify a mockery of the Great White Fleet, and for no goddam reason at that, long live the asshole, Assange. For how long will we live paying treasonous bastards outrageous money for profit, not for Peace. Ironically, Pax Americana has been co-opted brilliantly by McNamara, Wolfowitx, Jackson, Rivers, Gingrich, and hundreds of liars. Sunlight/AHAH !!
Krushchev, Castro etc. used cardboard tubes to simulate missiles to fool the people into fearing the West. We build the real deal, to frighten everyone, including ourselves, so a few thousand reptiles can grow rich.
bear
The expansion of NATO is a ruse intended to support further massive defense spending and the sales of ARMS to our "friends". I have no use for Putin, but I have to say his saber rattling is not without genuine cause. Lockheed has bought out all its competitors with our money, in the form of subsidies and "sales of two of the most expensive Turkeys ever designed, the F-22, and the J-35.
The first attempt to recognize the death of the fighter airplane was fielding the F-4 with missiles only, and no guns. In the 60's for God's sake, the fighter DIED. As stand off missiles appeared, the fighter was looking over its shoulder. No matter, the F-22 appeared to make gazillions on a piece of machinery that is obscenely overpriced, and has NO MISSION.
If Assange can light up the bastards who steal our money by showing us videos of dead soldiers to justify a mockery of the Great White Fleet, and for no goddam reason at that, long live the asshole, Assange. For how long will we live paying treasonous bastards outrageous money for profit, not for Peace. Ironically, Pax Americana has been co-opted brilliantly by McNamara, Wolfowitx, Jackson, Rivers, Gingrich, and hundreds of liars. Sunlight/AHAH !!
Krushchev, Castro etc. used cardboard tubes to simulate missiles to fool the people into fearing the West. We build the real deal, to frighten everyone, including ourselves, so a few thousand reptiles can grow rich.
bear
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 59
Posts: 5,089
Load Toad
More empty platitudes ... masquerading as argument?
I'll ask you what Pilate asked Jesus: What is truth?
Beyond that, how does it, truth, have any owner, at all?
What Assange has released is some information that he got from someone. If you wish to proclaim that as "truth" then -- using the example of an infamous helicopter mission tape featuring a couple of dead reporters -- how can you call "truth" that pizza pie slice of an entire event that had a background and a context?
Back to Jesus:
A guy was nailed to a cross. Truth?
A criminal was nailed to a cross. Truth?
A rebel rabbi who disrupted a temple's normal routine was nailed to a cross. Truth?
An innocent man was nailed to a cross. Truth?
The Romans cruelly tortured an innocent civilian in one of their imperial possessions, Palestine. Truth?
The Hebrew political "ins" in Palestine betrayed a rival to the Romans on trumped up charges to get him out of their way, since he was gaining popular support. Truth?
Truth belongs to all people - not based on the accident of where you were born, class, sex, education or whatever.
I'll ask you what Pilate asked Jesus: What is truth?
Beyond that, how does it, truth, have any owner, at all?
What Assange has released is some information that he got from someone. If you wish to proclaim that as "truth" then -- using the example of an infamous helicopter mission tape featuring a couple of dead reporters -- how can you call "truth" that pizza pie slice of an entire event that had a background and a context?
Back to Jesus:
A guy was nailed to a cross. Truth?
A criminal was nailed to a cross. Truth?
A rebel rabbi who disrupted a temple's normal routine was nailed to a cross. Truth?
An innocent man was nailed to a cross. Truth?
The Romans cruelly tortured an innocent civilian in one of their imperial possessions, Palestine. Truth?
The Hebrew political "ins" in Palestine betrayed a rival to the Romans on trumped up charges to get him out of their way, since he was gaining popular support. Truth?
Join Date: May 2002
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Posts: 1,699
Lonewolf, you ignore the basic truth of one fact - that in a democracy, any democracy, the people have the right to know if their elected representatives have lied to protect their own backsides, have lied to enrich themselves, have lied to take their country into an illegal war, have needlessly put their country's youth in harm's way and subsequently lied about it, have attempted to use "interests of national security" to avoid their own embarrassment.
If any of the above occurs, and anyone privy to such information leaks it, then they should be protected from any and all efforts the government makes to shut them up.
You cannot have democracy in which the government is permitted to conceal the truth of their own incompetency and falsehoods. If you attempt to defend such concealment, you aid totalitarianism and dictatorship.
If any of the above occurs, and anyone privy to such information leaks it, then they should be protected from any and all efforts the government makes to shut them up.
You cannot have democracy in which the government is permitted to conceal the truth of their own incompetency and falsehoods. If you attempt to defend such concealment, you aid totalitarianism and dictatorship.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 51
Posts: 1,337
>Lone Wolf.
Sorry - could not follow what you were on about.
I'll try my best as I think you tried yours...
OK - I'll substitute the word 'information' since deciding on what is truth comes from being able to interrogate different and disparate sources of information - which we can not do whilst it is held by the few, in power and only disseminated to reinforce the position they wish us to hold, to support them in their aims, for their itinerary whilst telling us it is for our benefit; whilst we pay for it in $$$, lives and restricted futures and freedom.
For the bible stuff I was raised a Catholic but have long since ceased following organised religeon and the stuff about Jesus trial is merely a fairy story to me.
'Empty platitudes'? An easy criticism which I've come to expect when I ask people why it's wrong to want things to get better not worse.
Is the Bill of Rights and The Constitution just 'empty platitudes'? Should the Founding Fathers have just given up?
Of course - an alternate is not offered, just sarcasm. Which as you can see from my first two sentences I can do too.
Sorry - could not follow what you were on about.
I'll try my best as I think you tried yours...
OK - I'll substitute the word 'information' since deciding on what is truth comes from being able to interrogate different and disparate sources of information - which we can not do whilst it is held by the few, in power and only disseminated to reinforce the position they wish us to hold, to support them in their aims, for their itinerary whilst telling us it is for our benefit; whilst we pay for it in $$$, lives and restricted futures and freedom.
For the bible stuff I was raised a Catholic but have long since ceased following organised religeon and the stuff about Jesus trial is merely a fairy story to me.
'Empty platitudes'? An easy criticism which I've come to expect when I ask people why it's wrong to want things to get better not worse.
Is the Bill of Rights and The Constitution just 'empty platitudes'? Should the Founding Fathers have just given up?
Of course - an alternate is not offered, just sarcasm. Which as you can see from my first two sentences I can do too.
Last edited by Load Toad; 4th Jan 2011 at 13:54.
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I think the upshot is not what do we do with Assange, but what do we do with the Status Quo?? Is it enough?? At some point, most everyone will have to admit that we are far, far down the road to chaotic events that have their Genesis in the epic theft, murder, and lies of those whom have acquired the evil means of absolute Tyranny.
Each time the bastards strike anew at some remnant of Freedom, I think, Now, then.
Each time the appeal to our knee jerk Pride seems to work again. We are not what we used to be, yet we persist in utilizing mere memories to justify newer and more bizarre devices of control and oppression by our keepers.
Each time the bastards strike anew at some remnant of Freedom, I think, Now, then.
Each time the appeal to our knee jerk Pride seems to work again. We are not what we used to be, yet we persist in utilizing mere memories to justify newer and more bizarre devices of control and oppression by our keepers.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,110
Karl Rove Consulting for the Swedish Government
This plot gets thicker -- anything Karl Rove touches turns to slime.
Rove Suspected of Role In Swedish WikiLeaks Probe | Connecticut Watchdog
Rove Suspected of Role In Swedish WikiLeaks Probe | Connecticut Watchdog
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: N. Spain
Age: 74
Posts: 1,299
I think the upshot is not what do we do with Assange, but what do we do with the Status Quo?? Is it enough?? At some point, most everyone will have to admit that we are far, far down the road to chaotic events that have their Genesis in the epic theft, murder, and lies of those whom have acquired the evil means of absolute Tyranny.
Each time the bastards strike anew at some remnant of Freedom, I think, Now, then.
Each time the appeal to our knee jerk Pride seems to work again. We are not what we used to be, yet we persist in utilizing mere memories to justify newer and more bizarre devices of control and oppression by our keepers.
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 63
Posts: 2,355
Beyond that, how does it, truth, have any owner, at all?
I have always believed that we are all entitled to the truth in matters which are of concern to us....
In other words it doesn't matter to me if my next door neighbours wife is having an affair because it's none of my business and has no impact on me but if it's my wife then it's definitely my concern....I am entitled to know the truth about 'uncle Harry'...
I'm entitled to know if my employer has been paying me the correct amount and not short changing me because my payslip needs a specialist to understand it's complexities (which I think is deliberate by the way) and is not user friendly by any stretch of the imagination...
I (and other people travelling with me) am entitled to know if the aircraft I am on has been maintained correctly or not possibly as a result of poor management or cost cutting because if it hasn't and I am aware of that then I and everyone else can choose another airline or mode of transport...
I am entitled to know if the government that was elected by us for us has been carrying out acts that are not in the interest of the nation but instead designed to benefit a select few....
To suggest the concept that 'truth' has no ownership is the same as saying that freedom is speculative and undesirable.....
We all know groups and individuals who would want that to be the case.....
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth Western Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 809
Another person who seems to regularly post here has suggested that acts of violence and civil disobedience have increased recently or over a period of the last 15 or 20 years....Nothing could be further from the truth....
Human behaviour is the same and will always be the same...
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Singapore
Age: 55
Posts: 89
All quite amusing really.
There is currently a law that was brought in the USA that assures that whistleblowers of any corporation, that can provide evidence of corrupt dealings/bribery etc in order to win deals and contracts will recieve 10/20/30% of the final court fines which as you are aware are normally rather large. When I have a few more minutes I will look it up and post details, but needless to say there are many lawyers getting very very rich, encouraging anyone to whistleblow, on the companies they work for and then they do the rest and you all get rich.
The law was passed by the US government to help uncover anybody involved in dodgy dealings and lies etc. They want those responsible to be punished severely and the companies brought to their knees. HOWEVER, when someone uncovers the untruths and lies and deceit from the mouths of government officials, nobody wants that. You couldnt make it up, well that's wrong I guess, you must be able to, because THEY did make it up!
Long live Assange! He is a bit like an 18th Century hangman. Nobody wants to socialise with him or know him, in fact by all accounts he is totally wierd. BUT, someones got to do the job, and he is (was) doing it rather well.
There is currently a law that was brought in the USA that assures that whistleblowers of any corporation, that can provide evidence of corrupt dealings/bribery etc in order to win deals and contracts will recieve 10/20/30% of the final court fines which as you are aware are normally rather large. When I have a few more minutes I will look it up and post details, but needless to say there are many lawyers getting very very rich, encouraging anyone to whistleblow, on the companies they work for and then they do the rest and you all get rich.
The law was passed by the US government to help uncover anybody involved in dodgy dealings and lies etc. They want those responsible to be punished severely and the companies brought to their knees. HOWEVER, when someone uncovers the untruths and lies and deceit from the mouths of government officials, nobody wants that. You couldnt make it up, well that's wrong I guess, you must be able to, because THEY did make it up!
Long live Assange! He is a bit like an 18th Century hangman. Nobody wants to socialise with him or know him, in fact by all accounts he is totally wierd. BUT, someones got to do the job, and he is (was) doing it rather well.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Assange 'threatened to sue' Grauniad over leak of WikiLeak
Irony, thy name is Julian
Julian Assange threatened to sue The Guardian last year when he learned it planned to publish stories based on leaked US diplomatic cables without his permission, it's claimed today. The Wikileaks founder's gripe: That the paper had obtained the documents it intended to use not via him, but from a leaker within his organisation.......
Nevertheless, today's story casts new light on the breakdown of relations between Wikileaks and The Guardian, the newspaper associated most closely with its mega-releases of intelligence reports from Afghanistan and Iraq, and the US diplomatic cables. The antipathy was first exposed before Christmas, when Assange complained to other newspapers about how his erstwhile primary media partner had reported on a leaked document relating to the sex charges he faces in Sweden.
It has been widely noted that both disputes suggest Assange has a rather a weak grasp of irony...........
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,699
No surprises, ORAC - merely more ad hominem attacks designed to undermine Assange's credibility and thus undermine the credibility of the leaked documents or, alternatively, merely to distract attention from them.
Whatever Assange's personality or sexual habits (try looking up David Lloyd George on that subject) it doesn't alter the fact that several governments have been caught out lying to cover their respective asses.
Whatever Assange's personality or sexual habits (try looking up David Lloyd George on that subject) it doesn't alter the fact that several governments have been caught out lying to cover their respective asses.
Guest
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Every man jack (and Julie) on this thread has my respect and attention. How in the world can bright people miss the salient foundation of the Man's position??
Not only has he broken NO LAW, his "releases" are protected without exception by no less than our Constitution. Now he's not a citizen of the USA, but we know by treatment of actual terrorists that non-citizens are recipients of the Constitutional constraints on the government.........
Jingo nonsense is de rigeur in the Rite Ring Lounge, but I assume most of the fanatics who savage Assange are serious?? Obama's Wars haven't a single consistent military raison d'etre, on the record, but Assange has a purpose, it's protected, and absent actual theory, I stipulate his assHattedness. It cannot be seen any other way. He's a richard and he can't satisfy the wimmin, but a Criminal?
Holy Smokin' Eddy.
Not only has he broken NO LAW, his "releases" are protected without exception by no less than our Constitution. Now he's not a citizen of the USA, but we know by treatment of actual terrorists that non-citizens are recipients of the Constitutional constraints on the government.........
Jingo nonsense is de rigeur in the Rite Ring Lounge, but I assume most of the fanatics who savage Assange are serious?? Obama's Wars haven't a single consistent military raison d'etre, on the record, but Assange has a purpose, it's protected, and absent actual theory, I stipulate his assHattedness. It cannot be seen any other way. He's a richard and he can't satisfy the wimmin, but a Criminal?
Holy Smokin' Eddy.
