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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 26th Oct 2018, 11:43
  #16301 (permalink)  
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-voting-rights

Leading Brexiter claims EU citizens in UK will be given voting rights


A leading Brexiter has claimed to have seen an extract of the UK’s draft withdrawal agreement and says it will give voting rights to all EU citizens who stay in the UK.

Daniel Hannan, a Conservative founder of Vote Leave, told fellow Conservative MEPs on Thursday that he had been given sight of key Brexit papers, which are supposed to be a closely-guarded secret among senior ministers and civil servants. In a WhatsAppmessage to other MEPs, Hannan said that the agreement would give voting rights to all EU citizens in England and Northern Ireland. He went on to say that voting rights were devolved in Scotland and Wales. The leading Brexiter questioned why the government had struck the deal saying it should have negotiated separate agreements with each EU country.

The disclosure of the message will raise questions as to why Hannan appears to have been given sight of such crucial documents. It will also raise the hopes of millions of EU citizens living in the UK who were unsure whether they would be able to vote in future elections.......

On the messages, Hannan wrote: “I just saw an extract of the draft withdrawal agreement. Britain has decided to enfranchise all EU nationals (at least in England and NI – it’s devolved in Scotland and Wales.) What an odd decision: why offer a blanket deal instead of country by country bilaterals? For what it’s worth, it will significantly bolster the non-Tory electorate.” Hannan did not respond to a request for a comment.......

The leak of the WhatsApp messages to the Guardian comes as the Brexit secretary, Dominic Raab, said the UK government had no plans to set out a no-deal technical notice for EU citizens’ rights. Speaking in the Commons, Raab did not elaborate or give a timeframe for how the rights would be spelt out. “The issue of citizens’ rights is on a scale and a level of importance and sensitivity which means it will not be done in technical notices but in a different format.” Labour said that the Department for Exiting the EU’s refusal to issue a technical notice was a broken promise, pointing to a Department of Transport notice which said “a technical notice on EU citizens in the UK will be published soon”.

Though EU citizens currently in the UK received a guarantee that they would receive settled status after Brexit, negotiations about some future rights are still ongoing, including their right to return to live in Britain even if they leave the country for some years. After the EU summit in Salzburg this year, Theresa May said the UK would guarantee the 3 million EU nationals living in the UK that “your rights will be protected, even in the event of no deal”. The House of Commons’ Brexit select committee noted in July that voting rights were a sticking point in negotiations and that the EU had “declined to consider a reciprocal agreement for the continuation of voting rights as part of the withdrawal agreement negotiations”.

A government spokesperson said:“This is not within the scope of the Withdrawal Agreement. We have always been clear that the voting rights of both UK nationals living in the EU and UK nationals living in the EU should be considered together and that we’re committed to doing bilateral deals to achieve this.”
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 12:04
  #16302 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
French Regional President Xavier Bertrand has dismissed the idea of a ‘go slow’ policy at the port of Calais if there is a No Deal Brexit, asking: “Who can believe such a thing?”.
Hardly a surprise. He's not going to risk the loss of local business to other continental ports.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 13:06
  #16303 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Hardly a surprise. He's not going to risk the loss of local business to other continental ports.
The problem is that much as this gent might not want to deliberately screw up the port of Calais, the very fact that trucks will be arriving from outside the EU there will have to be some sort of customs checks on trucks / their documentation as the vehicles exit ferries or trains, before they start their journeys in the EU, mean that it will be national authorities rather than regional ones that will dictate how much delays will impact upon the ports.

At least in Calais port, and Coquelles there is land available to stack truck s while they are waiting for clearance to enter the EU; sadly the same can't be said of the port of Dover, or the Eurotunnel terminal at Folkestone.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 13:55
  #16304 (permalink)  
 
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A 3rd world state you say ?.......erm, not quite, but there is steady decline in our standard of living

Quite agreed - even I can see that from when I lived in the UK as a teeanager and then again in my early 20s.....

But that steady decline has been over a couple of generations, no ?

And there have been hardcore and softcore Conservative governments, hardcore and softcore labour governments and even a coalition government.

To be provocative, I'd say the only constants, in fact, during this period have been the UK's membership of the EEC/EC/EU and the associated increase in population and low wage earners, and the pressure that that has put on society in general. And the continuous and continuing sell off of the UK's infrastructure to private investors and subsequent emphasis on profit above service.

So which of these two has contributed most to that steady decline ??
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 14:26
  #16305 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
A 3rd world state you say ?.......erm, not quite, but there is steady decline in our standard of living

Quite agreed - even I can see that from when I lived in the UK as a teeanager and then again in my early 20s.....

But that steady decline has been over a couple of generations, no ?

And there have been hardcore and softcore Conservative governments, hardcore and softcore labour governments and even a coalition government.

To be provocative, I'd say the only constants, in fact, during this period have been the UK's membership of the EEC/EC/EU and the associated increase in population and low wage earners, and the pressure that that has put on society in general. And the continuous and continuing sell off of the UK's infrastructure to private investors and subsequent emphasis on profit above service.

So which of these two has contributed most to that steady decline ??
I'd say that the major contributory factor has been the consistent reluctance by governments of all colours to protect UK industry from hostile takeovers by often (usually) asset stripping global corporations or venture capitalists. Two I could name in recent times are the sales of Cadbury and Boots.

You cannot ever see the French government allowing the sale of Danone; and certainly they'd never allow strategic industries such as EDF, Gaz de France, SNCF etc to foreign interests, whereas in the UK it doesn't appear to matter how strategically important an industry is, flog it off to the highest bidder.

With the steady loss of UK manufacturing industry, it's replacement with distribution warehouses, call centres, coffee shops and the like there has certainly grown an over dependence upon low paid jobs, and the further north you go in the country the more pronounced this is. Brexit, and with it the potential loss of businesses that use the UK as a good / cheap springboard into the EU, even those distribution jobs may be at risk. I really cannot see leaving the EU doing anything to improve the quality of jobs available to the majority in UK, after all Dyson (that stalwart of the Brexit side) can't even see fit to manufacture his new electric vehicle in a post Brexit UK. What that does that say about our manufacturing future?
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 15:16
  #16306 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
...

With the steady loss of UK manufacturing industry, it's replacement with distribution warehouses, call centres, coffee shops and the like there has certainly grown an over dependence upon low paid jobs, and the further north you go in the country the more pronounced this is. Brexit, and with it the potential loss of businesses that use the UK as a good / cheap springboard into the EU, even those distribution jobs may be at risk. I really cannot see leaving the EU doing anything to improve the quality of jobs available to the majority in UK, after all Dyson (that stalwart of the Brexit side) can't even see fit to manufacture his new electric vehicle in a post Brexit UK. What that does that say about our manufacturing future?

UK Manufacturing Statistics

Manufacturing contributes £6.7 trillion to the global economy. Contrary to widespread perceptions, UK manufacturing is thriving, with the UK currently the world’s eighth largest industrial nation. If current growth trends continue, the UK will break into the top five by 2021. In the UK, manufacturing makes up 11% of GVA, 44% of total UK exports, 70% of business R&D, and directly employs 2.6 million people.
https://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-m...ng-statistics/
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 15:51
  #16307 (permalink)  
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The UK just moved out of mass production of low profit items into h-etc, high profit, low workforce items. Neceassary as newly industrialised nation’s with low wages and new built plants moved into those industries.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 16:08
  #16308 (permalink)  
 
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Correct.

But those who moan about the 'downfall of UK manufacturing' have their minds stuck about 100 years ago when all they can see is those highly visible yet low wage 'bulk' industries (such as ship building?) of the past. Those moaners need to modernise their minds, stop reading the Gruinard and get out and see what is really going on.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 16:19
  #16309 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
A 3rd world state you say ?.......erm, not quite, but there is steady decline in our standard of living

Quite agreed - even I can see that from when I lived in the UK as a teeanager and then again in my early 20s.....

But that steady decline has been over a couple of generations, no ?

And there have been hardcore and softcore Conservative governments, hardcore and softcore labour governments and even a coalition government.

To be provocative, I'd say the only constants, in fact, during this period have been the UK's membership of the EEC/EC/EU and the associated increase in population and low wage earners, and the pressure that that has put on society in general. And the continuous and continuing sell off of the UK's infrastructure to private investors and subsequent emphasis on profit above service.

So which of these two has contributed most to that steady decline ??
I wouldn't entirely agree with your analysis, but, you do have some valid points regarding the policies of various UK Gov't of all hues. Allied to which is that well established British trait of spending erm, more than we can afford to actually repay...and don't the credit card providers just love the UK public for swelling their profits when we do....allied to another British trait....social snobbery and prestige ( the two are inextricably linked before one of the pedants points out these constitute two traits ) and hence a mounting personal debt crisis now causing concern.

Alas, your attempt at provocation, and the correlation between those soon to be a consigned to history and about time as well, we don't want their sort in our cherished island home what !! ( Mail readers can have difficulty in comprehending any references to immigrants / immigration and the EU without the chosen lexicon of the rag hence the thoughtful inclusion for them ) isn't quite as convincing as you may wish.

The UK population had been happily indulging in sexual congress and procreation thereafter long before the damned interlopers ( more Mail vocabulary for you...chaps ) crossed that bastion of freedom, the English Channel.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 18:41
  #16310 (permalink)  
 
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It is interesting to see shipbuilding mentioned as a "low wage" industry. Wasn't the cry of the 1960/1970s that shipbuilders were being overpaid? Along with all those filthy rich rail workers, car builders etc.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 19:32
  #16311 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
I wouldn't entirely agree with your analysis, but, you do have some valid points regarding the policies of various UK Gov't of all hues. Allied to which is that well established British trait of spending erm, more than we can afford to actually repay...and don't the credit card providers just love the UK public for swelling their profits when we do....allied to another British trait....social snobbery and prestige ( the two are inextricably linked before one of the pedants points out these constitute two traits ) and hence a mounting personal debt crisis now causing concern.

Alas, your attempt at provocation, and the correlation between those soon to be a consigned to history and about time as well, we don't want their sort in our cherished island home what !! ( Mail readers can have difficulty in comprehending any references to immigrants / immigration and the EU without the chosen lexicon of the rag hence the thoughtful inclusion for them ) isn't quite as convincing as you may wish.

The UK population had been happily indulging in sexual congress and procreation thereafter long before the damned interlopers ( more Mail vocabulary for you...chaps ) crossed that bastion of freedom, the English Channel.

You misunderstood the reason for my statement and question.

I assume that mass immgration from Eastern and Southern Europe has been beneficial to the UK in certain areas of the economy and certain parts of public services, but as has been said so many times, the pressure on public services and investment needed to absorb an average of 250,000 new people every year for the past ten years or so just hasn't been possible.

So I'd probably slightly modify your original statement in asking my question from ' standard of living ' to ' quality of life '
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 21:23
  #16312 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
You misunderstood the reason for my statement and question.

I assume that mass immgration from Eastern and Southern Europe has been beneficial to the UK in certain areas of the economy and certain parts of public services, but as has been said so many times, the pressure on public services and investment needed to absorb an average of 250,000 new people every year for the past ten years or so just hasn't been possible.

So I'd probably slightly modify your original statement in asking my question from ' standard of living ' to ' quality of life '
Absolutely correct Hussar. And the majority of us, with a modicum of commonsense, recognise that trade off you note between standard of living (the economists favourite) and quality of life (the true indicator)
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 08:39
  #16313 (permalink)  
 
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Wot nobody posted since 26th
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 09:33
  #16314 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DON T View Post
Wot nobody posted since 26th
It's due to posters being poisoned by stale cookies..........or something like that !
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 10:10
  #16315 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Absolutely correct Hussar. And the majority of us, with a modicum of commonsense, recognise that trade off you note between standard of living (the economists favourite) and quality of life (the true indicator)
I absolutely agree that it's quality of life that is more important; but exactly how is my "quality of life" going to be improved by Brexit??

Will my quality of life be improved by having to queue even longer at borders; being more restricted in living and working anywhere I want, without restriction, within Europe. Will my quality of life be improved by having less money from my money purchase pension to pay for thing that I enjoy? Personally, I doubt it. Quality of life is influenced to no small amount by the money I have to enhance it - standard of living and quality of life are intrinsically linked.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 11:22
  #16316 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I absolutely agree that it's quality of life that is more important; but exactly how is my "quality of life" going to be improved by Brexit??

Will my quality of life be improved by having to queue even longer at borders; being more restricted in living and working anywhere I want, without restriction, within Europe. Will my quality of life be improved by having less money from my money purchase pension to pay for thing that I enjoy? Personally, I doubt it. Quality of life is influenced to no small amount by the money I have to enhance it - standard of living and quality of life are intrinsically linked.
Interesting post, which I can't help dissecting - if you dont mind...
1. Having to queue even longer at borders. Have you tried getting back in to your own country now, at pretty much any major UK airport? The queues are appalling, and completely unnecessary. Very little to do with the EU and a lot to do with poor process and procedures, and political correctness gone mad I suspect.
2. Being more restricted in living and working anywhere I want. How so? I've not heard any of the EU countries state any specific restrictions on GB nationals working or living in the EU, post Brexit. Will probably require some additional paperwork (e.g. a VISA), but not exactly a quality of life issue
3. Having less money from my money purchase pension. Unfortunately I can't predict whether you (or I) will or wont have less money come retirement! Far too early to say whether Brexit will have any impacts (positive or negative).

I'm personally not convinced 1 and 2 hold much weight and I dont believe remainers worst fears will come to pass, and I doubt they will impact the majority of peoples "quality of life" in any case. #3 is a big one I accept, and if the UK does got to hell in a horse cart (because of Brexit) then remainers worst fears will have been proven right. My view is our destiny is (largely) going to be in our own hands.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 11:38
  #16317 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Interesting post, which I can't help dissecting - if you dont mind...
1. Having to queue even longer at borders. Have you tried getting back in to your own country now, at pretty much any major UK airport? The queues are appalling, and completely unnecessary. Very little to do with the EU and a lot to do with poor process and procedures, and political correctness gone mad I suspect.
2. Being more restricted in living and working anywhere I want. How so? I've not heard any of the EU countries state any specific restrictions on GB nationals working or living in the EU, post Brexit. Will probably require some additional paperwork (e.g. a VISA), but not exactly a quality of life issue
3. Having less money from my money purchase pension. Unfortunately I can't predict whether you (or I) will or wont have less money come retirement! Far too early to say whether Brexit will have any impacts (positive or negative).

I'm personally not convinced 1 and 2 hold much weight and I dont believe remainers worst fears will come to pass, and I doubt they will impact the majority of peoples "quality of life" in any case. #3 is a big one I accept, and if the UK does got to hell in a horse cart (because of Brexit) then remainers worst fears will have been proven right. My view is our destiny is (largely) going to be in our own hands.
Agree, with No.1 wholeheartedly, the UK border for arrival from EU are disgusting, and all about satisfying readers of the usual suspect (mainly bu not exclusively) tabloid papers. my point is that the Schengen border(s) will become an equally big ball-ache.

Visas are a barrier to free movement for work (on indeed for relocation) if the rest of Europe has such a hostile system as the UK appears to want to have then things will be less simple, and as a result more costly.

Agree with your point on pensions. In the log term there may be no impact, possibly a positive impact, but for people withing 5 years of retirement the outlook isn't that great, given the way the exit negotiations appear (not) to be going.

As for destiny being in our own hands, with the current crop of extremists and incompetents in politics at present, that fills me with dread!!
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 11:38
  #16318 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
exactly how is my "quality of life" going to be improved by Brexit??
Bexiters have been asked this in many fora over a couple of years now.

NOT ONE SINGLE benefit of #brexit, in terms of how it will make the average citizen's life better, has been identified by any of them, in any forum.

Assuming, that is, you exclude "benefits" involving
  • free rainbow coloured flying unicorns
  • magic money trees
  • BLUE PASSPORTS.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 12:05
  #16319 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Bexiters have been asked this in many fora over a couple of years now.

NOT ONE SINGLE benefit of #brexit, in terms of how it will make the average citizen's life better, has been identified by any of them, in any forum.

Assuming, that is, you exclude "benefits" involving
  • free rainbow coloured flying unicorns
  • magic money trees
  • BLUE PASSPORTS.
OK I'll rise to the challenge on that one...

The problem with the UK now is a complete and structural imbalance in the economy, where the status quo (of which EU membership is a big part) has successfully made the country richer over the last 40yrs. However, for far too many, those wealth benefits have not been felt and what has actually happened is the rich have got richer, the poor have got poorer and the middle classes just work longer and harder - with the resulting negative impacts on quality of life.

EU memberhsip is pertinent, as our overheated (but imbalanced) economy, craves young, low skill, low wage labour. For our politicians, obsessed with GDP stats and hungry to retain power, the free movement policy of the EU has been the answer to their prayers.

But it's gone too far, way too far. GDP growth for the sake of growth is no longer the right answer for an advanced western nation such as the UK, with significant physical capacity constraints, a generally poor infrastructure and over burdened public services.

We need to take the opportunity of Brexit to rebalance our economy, develop a more sustainable (and slower) growth trajectory, with a fairer distribution of the (enormous) wealth that is swilling around.

It's a bigger picture than Brexit, admittedly, but I am convinced that a lot of leavers see that bigger picture in the same way (far from being the narrow minded, selfish idiots we are portrayed as!)
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 12:21
  #16320 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post

We need to take the opportunity of Brexit to rebalance our economy, develop a more sustainable (and slower) growth trajectory, with a fairer distribution of the (enormous) wealth that is swilling around.

It's a bigger picture than Brexit, admittedly, but I am convinced that a lot of leavers see that bigger picture in the same way (far from being the narrow minded, selfish idiots we are portrayed as!)
Absolutely noble sentiments.

Now...look at those on the Tory side of the house pushing so hard for Brexit, driving this thing towards B day... ( the ERG, JRM et al, plus fellow travellers) and ask yourself if they are motivated by the same sentiments as you and other philantrophic Brexiters might be..

Do you think they want slower growth and a fairer distribution of wealth?

Honest answer please...
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