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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 26th Oct 2018, 15:51
  #16301 (permalink)  
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The UK just moved out of mass production of low profit items into h-etc, high profit, low workforce items. Neceassary as newly industrialised nationís with low wages and new built plants moved into those industries.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 16:08
  #16302 (permalink)  
 
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Correct.

But those who moan about the 'downfall of UK manufacturing' have their minds stuck about 100 years ago when all they can see is those highly visible yet low wage 'bulk' industries (such as ship building?) of the past. Those moaners need to modernise their minds, stop reading the Gruinard and get out and see what is really going on.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 16:19
  #16303 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
A 3rd world state you say ?.......erm, not quite, but there is steady decline in our standard of living

Quite agreed - even I can see that from when I lived in the UK as a teeanager and then again in my early 20s.....

But that steady decline has been over a couple of generations, no ?

And there have been hardcore and softcore Conservative governments, hardcore and softcore labour governments and even a coalition government.

To be provocative, I'd say the only constants, in fact, during this period have been the UK's membership of the EEC/EC/EU and the associated increase in population and low wage earners, and the pressure that that has put on society in general. And the continuous and continuing sell off of the UK's infrastructure to private investors and subsequent emphasis on profit above service.

So which of these two has contributed most to that steady decline ??
I wouldn't entirely agree with your analysis, but, you do have some valid points regarding the policies of various UK Gov't of all hues. Allied to which is that well established British trait of spending erm, more than we can afford to actually repay...and don't the credit card providers just love the UK public for swelling their profits when we do....allied to another British trait....social snobbery and prestige ( the two are inextricably linked before one of the pedants points out these constitute two traits ) and hence a mounting personal debt crisis now causing concern.

Alas, your attempt at provocation, and the correlation between those soon to be a consigned to history and about time as well, we don't want their sort in our cherished island home what !! ( Mail readers can have difficulty in comprehending any references to immigrants / immigration and the EU without the chosen lexicon of the rag hence the thoughtful inclusion for them ) isn't quite as convincing as you may wish.

The UK population had been happily indulging in sexual congress and procreation thereafter long before the damned interlopers ( more Mail vocabulary for you...chaps ) crossed that bastion of freedom, the English Channel.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 18:41
  #16304 (permalink)  
 
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It is interesting to see shipbuilding mentioned as a "low wage" industry. Wasn't the cry of the 1960/1970s that shipbuilders were being overpaid? Along with all those filthy rich rail workers, car builders etc.
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 19:32
  #16305 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
I wouldn't entirely agree with your analysis, but, you do have some valid points regarding the policies of various UK Gov't of all hues. Allied to which is that well established British trait of spending erm, more than we can afford to actually repay...and don't the credit card providers just love the UK public for swelling their profits when we do....allied to another British trait....social snobbery and prestige ( the two are inextricably linked before one of the pedants points out these constitute two traits ) and hence a mounting personal debt crisis now causing concern.

Alas, your attempt at provocation, and the correlation between those soon to be a consigned to history and about time as well, we don't want their sort in our cherished island home what !! ( Mail readers can have difficulty in comprehending any references to immigrants / immigration and the EU without the chosen lexicon of the rag hence the thoughtful inclusion for them ) isn't quite as convincing as you may wish.

The UK population had been happily indulging in sexual congress and procreation thereafter long before the damned interlopers ( more Mail vocabulary for you...chaps ) crossed that bastion of freedom, the English Channel.

You misunderstood the reason for my statement and question.

I assume that mass immgration from Eastern and Southern Europe has been beneficial to the UK in certain areas of the economy and certain parts of public services, but as has been said so many times, the pressure on public services and investment needed to absorb an average of 250,000 new people every year for the past ten years or so just hasn't been possible.

So I'd probably slightly modify your original statement in asking my question from ' standard of living ' to ' quality of life '
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 21:23
  #16306 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
You misunderstood the reason for my statement and question.

I assume that mass immgration from Eastern and Southern Europe has been beneficial to the UK in certain areas of the economy and certain parts of public services, but as has been said so many times, the pressure on public services and investment needed to absorb an average of 250,000 new people every year for the past ten years or so just hasn't been possible.

So I'd probably slightly modify your original statement in asking my question from ' standard of living ' to ' quality of life '
Absolutely correct Hussar. And the majority of us, with a modicum of commonsense, recognise that trade off you note between standard of living (the economists favourite) and quality of life (the true indicator)
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 08:39
  #16307 (permalink)  
 
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Wot nobody posted since 26th
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 09:33
  #16308 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DON T View Post
Wot nobody posted since 26th
It's due to posters being poisoned by stale cookies..........or something like that !
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 10:10
  #16309 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Absolutely correct Hussar. And the majority of us, with a modicum of commonsense, recognise that trade off you note between standard of living (the economists favourite) and quality of life (the true indicator)
I absolutely agree that it's quality of life that is more important; but exactly how is my "quality of life" going to be improved by Brexit??

Will my quality of life be improved by having to queue even longer at borders; being more restricted in living and working anywhere I want, without restriction, within Europe. Will my quality of life be improved by having less money from my money purchase pension to pay for thing that I enjoy? Personally, I doubt it. Quality of life is influenced to no small amount by the money I have to enhance it - standard of living and quality of life are intrinsically linked.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 11:22
  #16310 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I absolutely agree that it's quality of life that is more important; but exactly how is my "quality of life" going to be improved by Brexit??

Will my quality of life be improved by having to queue even longer at borders; being more restricted in living and working anywhere I want, without restriction, within Europe. Will my quality of life be improved by having less money from my money purchase pension to pay for thing that I enjoy? Personally, I doubt it. Quality of life is influenced to no small amount by the money I have to enhance it - standard of living and quality of life are intrinsically linked.
Interesting post, which I can't help dissecting - if you dont mind...
1. Having to queue even longer at borders. Have you tried getting back in to your own country now, at pretty much any major UK airport? The queues are appalling, and completely unnecessary. Very little to do with the EU and a lot to do with poor process and procedures, and political correctness gone mad I suspect.
2. Being more restricted in living and working anywhere I want. How so? I've not heard any of the EU countries state any specific restrictions on GB nationals working or living in the EU, post Brexit. Will probably require some additional paperwork (e.g. a VISA), but not exactly a quality of life issue
3. Having less money from my money purchase pension. Unfortunately I can't predict whether you (or I) will or wont have less money come retirement! Far too early to say whether Brexit will have any impacts (positive or negative).

I'm personally not convinced 1 and 2 hold much weight and I dont believe remainers worst fears will come to pass, and I doubt they will impact the majority of peoples "quality of life" in any case. #3 is a big one I accept, and if the UK does got to hell in a horse cart (because of Brexit) then remainers worst fears will have been proven right. My view is our destiny is (largely) going to be in our own hands.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 11:38
  #16311 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Interesting post, which I can't help dissecting - if you dont mind...
1. Having to queue even longer at borders. Have you tried getting back in to your own country now, at pretty much any major UK airport? The queues are appalling, and completely unnecessary. Very little to do with the EU and a lot to do with poor process and procedures, and political correctness gone mad I suspect.
2. Being more restricted in living and working anywhere I want. How so? I've not heard any of the EU countries state any specific restrictions on GB nationals working or living in the EU, post Brexit. Will probably require some additional paperwork (e.g. a VISA), but not exactly a quality of life issue
3. Having less money from my money purchase pension. Unfortunately I can't predict whether you (or I) will or wont have less money come retirement! Far too early to say whether Brexit will have any impacts (positive or negative).

I'm personally not convinced 1 and 2 hold much weight and I dont believe remainers worst fears will come to pass, and I doubt they will impact the majority of peoples "quality of life" in any case. #3 is a big one I accept, and if the UK does got to hell in a horse cart (because of Brexit) then remainers worst fears will have been proven right. My view is our destiny is (largely) going to be in our own hands.
Agree, with No.1 wholeheartedly, the UK border for arrival from EU are disgusting, and all about satisfying readers of the usual suspect (mainly bu not exclusively) tabloid papers. my point is that the Schengen border(s) will become an equally big ball-ache.

Visas are a barrier to free movement for work (on indeed for relocation) if the rest of Europe has such a hostile system as the UK appears to want to have then things will be less simple, and as a result more costly.

Agree with your point on pensions. In the log term there may be no impact, possibly a positive impact, but for people withing 5 years of retirement the outlook isn't that great, given the way the exit negotiations appear (not) to be going.

As for destiny being in our own hands, with the current crop of extremists and incompetents in politics at present, that fills me with dread!!
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 11:38
  #16312 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
exactly how is my "quality of life" going to be improved by Brexit??
Bexiters have been asked this in many fora over a couple of years now.

NOT ONE SINGLE benefit of #brexit, in terms of how it will make the average citizen's life better, has been identified by any of them, in any forum.

Assuming, that is, you exclude "benefits" involving
  • free rainbow coloured flying unicorns
  • magic money trees
  • BLUE PASSPORTS.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 12:05
  #16313 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Bexiters have been asked this in many fora over a couple of years now.

NOT ONE SINGLE benefit of #brexit, in terms of how it will make the average citizen's life better, has been identified by any of them, in any forum.

Assuming, that is, you exclude "benefits" involving
  • free rainbow coloured flying unicorns
  • magic money trees
  • BLUE PASSPORTS.
OK I'll rise to the challenge on that one...

The problem with the UK now is a complete and structural imbalance in the economy, where the status quo (of which EU membership is a big part) has successfully made the country richer over the last 40yrs. However, for far too many, those wealth benefits have not been felt and what has actually happened is the rich have got richer, the poor have got poorer and the middle classes just work longer and harder - with the resulting negative impacts on quality of life.

EU memberhsip is pertinent, as our overheated (but imbalanced) economy, craves young, low skill, low wage labour. For our politicians, obsessed with GDP stats and hungry to retain power, the free movement policy of the EU has been the answer to their prayers.

But it's gone too far, way too far. GDP growth for the sake of growth is no longer the right answer for an advanced western nation such as the UK, with significant physical capacity constraints, a generally poor infrastructure and over burdened public services.

We need to take the opportunity of Brexit to rebalance our economy, develop a more sustainable (and slower) growth trajectory, with a fairer distribution of the (enormous) wealth that is swilling around.

It's a bigger picture than Brexit, admittedly, but I am convinced that a lot of leavers see that bigger picture in the same way (far from being the narrow minded, selfish idiots we are portrayed as!)
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 12:21
  #16314 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post

We need to take the opportunity of Brexit to rebalance our economy, develop a more sustainable (and slower) growth trajectory, with a fairer distribution of the (enormous) wealth that is swilling around.

It's a bigger picture than Brexit, admittedly, but I am convinced that a lot of leavers see that bigger picture in the same way (far from being the narrow minded, selfish idiots we are portrayed as!)
Absolutely noble sentiments.

Now...look at those on the Tory side of the house pushing so hard for Brexit, driving this thing towards B day... ( the ERG, JRM et al, plus fellow travellers) and ask yourself if they are motivated by the same sentiments as you and other philantrophic Brexiters might be..

Do you think they want slower growth and a fairer distribution of wealth?

Honest answer please...
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 12:38
  #16315 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
OK I'll rise to the challenge on that one...
But you didn't.

Lots of words, but not a single answer to "NOT ONE SINGLE benefit of #brexit, in terms of how it will make the average citizen's life better".

Again..
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 12:46
  #16316 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Absolutely noble sentiments.

Now...look at those on the Tory side of the house pushing so hard for Brexit, driving this thing towards B day... ( the ERG, JRM et al, plus fellow travellers) and ask yourself if they are motivated by the same sentiments as you and other philantrophic Brexiters might be..

Do you think they want slower growth and a fairer distribution of wealth?

Honest answer please...
JRM stands for pretty much nothing that i believe in - he's a dinosaur of the right that represents only a small minority of public opinion I suspect (hope). BoJo - I'm not so sure. He's got a carefuly crafted public image (of being a bumbling idiot!), but benath some of that I think there may be someobdy of "substance" and with a reasonable moral compass?

The dearth of real political talent nowadays, on all sides, is a massive issue and of course risks opening the door to somebody like JRM.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 12:49
  #16317 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
But you didn't.

Lots of words, but not a single answer to "NOT ONE SINGLE benefit of #brexit, in terms of how it will make the average citizen's life better".

Again..
That's a very simplistic question Gertrude, and I'm not sure there is a binary "yes it will / no it wont" make peoples lives better answer.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 13:36
  #16318 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
That's a very simplistic question Gertrude, and I'm not sure there is a binary "yes it will / no it wont" make peoples lives better answer.
So, the question that everyone should be asking themselves before making any decision, "how will this make whose life better?", you're saying nobody has thought about?
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 13:55
  #16319 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post

NOT ONE SINGLE benefit of #brexit, in terms of how it will make the average citizen's life better, has been identified by any of them, in any forum.
Well the average citizen will be better off by having their voices heard through repatriating Sovereignty to the UK. They will be able to vote in a government that does what they want - they could vote in one that cut VAT for instance, or that brought back British Rail, that reintroduced capital restrictions, etc. etc.

I fully agree that you personally may not like some or all of the policies introduced but if that is the will of the people then their lives have been improved by being listened to for once.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 14:01
  #16320 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
So, the question that everyone should be asking themselves before making any decision, "how will this make whose life better?", you're saying nobody has thought about?
Each one us had the opportunity to answer that question for ourselves in June 2016. Some will have had a very clear idea of what they were voting for and why, and some will have been less clear (and perhaps a little easily led) - but that's democracy, warts and all. It's doesnt always deliver the answer those in control either expect or want
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