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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 23rd Oct 2018, 10:29
  #16261 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post

Meanwhile, a guide to those Bad Losers who financed those Peoples' Voters to actually turn up to Saturday's love in....


Thanks. A timely & may I say welcome reminder of why I no longer hang around a place packed from arsehole to beak with superannuated gammon whose reliance on puerile memes in place of actual coherent argument deflects from the instinctive realisation that the sands are shifting around them.

Of how pettyfogging arguments over crowd sizes overlook the reality that demonstrations on such a scale have rarely been in the wrong side of history. Of how deep down inside, they know that they have been conned, duped into being quislings for an undeliverable right wing fantasy, peddled by a cabal of old Etonians for their own political advancement & personal enrichment. Of how in that context, there is no backing down, it's become all about winning, no matter the cost, a wholly transactional venture and hang the disparate corporate & public warnings, mounting by the day from all corners. So, thanks. Thanks, for reminding me the greatest comfort in my life is that I'm not you, feeling the need to post a picture of a bunch of crying babies & shouting: Look: that's you.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 10:42
  #16262 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks. A timely & may I say welcome reminder of why I no longer hang around a place packed from arsehole to beak with superannuated gammon whose reliance on puerile memes in place of actual coherent argument deflects from the instinctive realisation that the sands are shifting around them.
But you are still here ???

Of how pettyfogging arguments over crowd sizes overlook the reality that demonstrations on such a scale have rarely been in the wrong side of history. Of how deep down inside, they know that they have been conned, duped into being quislings for an undeliverable right wing fantasy, peddled by a cabal of old Etonians for their own political advancement & personal enrichment. Of how in that context, there is no backing down, it's become all about winning, no matter the cost, a wholly transactional venture and hang the disparate corporate & public warnings, mounting by the day from all corners. So, thanks. Thanks, for reminding me the greatest comfort in my life is that I'm not you, feeling the need to post a picture of a bunch of crying babies & shouting: Look: that's you.
Or how from day 1 the losing side of the argument failed to accept the outcome, although before the vote they were the most adamant in saying that this would be the end of the matter. The EU way of endlessly repeating votes until the 'right' answer is achieved is one reason why some of the electorate reject the concept.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 10:46
  #16263 (permalink)  
 
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Democracy isnt democracy unless people can change their minds.. That little snippet is a quote from a certain D Davies in an earlier role.

But seriously even the most rabid Quitter would have to agree this si the most divisive issue in Britain since the Civil War and as they are so confident of their cause why not have a second informed' referendum. They may have notice that remainders rather than being weak and childish are actually comprised of the younger elements of society who will merely reverse the thing in ten years anyway, people from and around London and who are therefore closest to the largest source of revenue for the country and judging from the fact they dont use abusive terms, violence and bad language all the time when talking about 'the other side' might just have a fuller understanding of the issues than some quitters do .

Several countries have had second referendums on Eu issues which overturned the first because over the 2-3 interval people really understood what their heart over head vote (often understandable why they felt that way) meant for their job, their well being and their childrens future.

So why not just have a second referendum, if Brexit wins then the stay people will have to be quiet-because the sniping and sabotage wont stop once we leave, you can be assured of that especially as reality checks in.

I am afraid for me the mind set of two many quitters is epitomised by a woman on the internet two days ago , she voted leave so we can have an Empire again !!!!!!!!!
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 10:49
  #16264 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Thanks. A timely & may I say welcome reminder of why I no longer hang around a place packed from arsehole to beak with superannuated gammon whose reliance on puerile memes in place of actual coherent argument deflects from the instinctive realisation that the sands are shifting around them. Of how pettyfogging arguments over crowd sizes overlook the reality that demonstrations on such a scale have rarely been in the wrong side of history. Of how deep down inside, they know that they have been conned, duped into being quislings for an undeliverable right wing fantasy, peddled by a cabal of old Etonians for their own political advancement & personal enrichment. Of how in that context, there is no backing down, it's become all about winning, no matter the cost, a wholly transactional venture and hang the disparate corporate & public warnings, mounting by the day from all corners. So, thanks. Thanks, for reminding me the greatest comfort in my life is that I'm not you, feeling the need to post a picture of a bunch of crying babies & shout: Look: that's you.
Humour bypass this morning ?? Or permanently ??

Whatever....Don't sit on the fence, man. Tell us your real feelings !!

I assume you didn't know or have forgotten that the two biggest cheerleaders at the referendum for the UK to stay in the EU, Cameron and Osborne, and a whole bunch of toff Conservative pro-EU supporters like them are also from exactly the background you apparently so despise ??

Although I wouldn't have put, say. John Mann and Frank Field, or Kate Hoey and Gisella Stewart, etc, into that group.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 12:56
  #16265 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
Democracy isnt democracy unless people can change their minds.
So hypothetically, what would have happened if we had voted to remain? Would we have been given another referendum a few years later to see if we'd changed our minds?

Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
So why not just have a second referendum, if Brexit wins then the stay people will have to be quiet...
Except we know very well they'll want yet another referendum.......

Referendums are fine up to a point, but we need to be grown up enough to accept the outcome. If we don't, then the losing side will just keep demanding one referendum after another until they get the outcome they want.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 13:13
  #16266 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
So why not just have a second referendum
There has been a second referendum, the first was held 43 years ago. If you had another one, it would be the third. I suggest you give it until 2059 and see how things work out.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 13:27
  #16267 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
One particular raving #brexshitter came up with that number, yes, but it was just him.

Other estimates were up to 1.2m. Most were around 700k. There certainly seemed to be several times as many people as there were last time, which was generally reckoned to be 250k.
Anyone believing that 15%, or even the lesser figure of 8% of London's population was crammed into that space is deluded beyond help.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 13:41
  #16268 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
Anyone believing that 15%, or even the lesser figure of 8% of London's population was crammed into that space is deluded beyond help.
Or perhaps anyone believing that 15%, or even the lesser figure of 8% of London's population was crammed into that space is able to look at a photograph and count. Don't worry - with a few more decades of practice your numeracy may get to the basic counting level (if you try really hard).

PDR
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 17:25
  #16269 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
Anyone believing that 15%, or even the lesser figure of 8% of London's population was crammed into that space is deluded beyond help.
Or put another way....

Assuming 66 million people in the UK
Assuming 17 million who voted to leave the EU weren't there
Assuming the majority of the 7 million people who couldn't be bothered to vote weren't there
Assuming most of the 5 million children in the UK under the age of 12 weren't there
Assuming most of the 7 million people from Scotland and N Ireland weren't there
Assuming another few million or so were watching football, shopping, gardening, on holiday, etc...

I'm pretty useless at maths, but even if it was 750,000 'Peoples Voters' there on Saturday, it represents about 3% of the potential number who could have been there and about 5% of the 16 million or so who voted to stay in the EU.

I know that by some peoples' weird logic and imagination 3% to 5% of the UK demanding a 'Peoples Vote' is an overwhelming majority and 750,000 hardcore EU supporters must have their opportunity to override the vote of the 17 million who did vote to leave the EU, but hardly convincing except to the already convinced.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 17:29
  #16270 (permalink)  
 
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Still a long Waitrose queue....

Whether there were 250,000 or 750,000, it was still a very long queue for Waitrose.

Did they have special offers on guacamole?
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 18:49
  #16271 (permalink)  
 
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I know that by some peoples' weird logic and imagination 3% to 5% of the UK demanding a 'Peoples Vote' is an overwhelming majority and 750,000 hardcore EU supporters must have their opportunity to override the vote of the 17 million who did vote to leave the EU, but hardly convincing except to the already convinced.
There aren't many people who seriously believe that, however the overwhelming majority of people are too idle or simply can't get to a demo in London - most of us don't live in that cesspit, or close enough to it to get there at the drop of a hat. There are 5 remainers living in my (very small) street who didn't attend for a variety of reasons, and I'm sure many others who didn't.

If you assume that probably something less than one in 10 people can be arsed to take direct action on anything, whether that be to join a march or actually complain to their supermarket because there aren't enough tills open, it might be reasonable to assume that that 750k could present as many as 7.5 million in the population - still nowhere near the numbers that turned out to vote on 23.6.16 but a sizable number nonetheless.

Still, at this late stage I can't see a demo of 750k, 1.5m or whatever changing anything. The battle will start in earnest after the UK leaves the EU, especially if it turns out, even just in the short to medium term to be an economic disaster. There will be an almighty backlash against the ring leaders if that proves to be the case. The 2022 general election could prove very interesting, and very divisive.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 20:12
  #16272 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
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As we import far more from Europe than we export and from Europe most from Germany. I can foresee turbulence but should the sky fall in I know not where.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 20:35
  #16273 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
There aren't many people who seriously believe that, however the overwhelming majority of people are too idle or simply can't get to a demo in London - most of us don't live in that cesspit, or close enough to it to get there at the drop of a hat. There are 5 remainers living in my (very small) street who didn't attend for a variety of reasons, and I'm sure many others who didn't.

If you assume that probably something less than one in 10 people can be arsed to take direct action on anything, whether that be to join a march or actually complain to their supermarket because there aren't enough tills open, it might be reasonable to assume that that 750k could present as many as 7.5 million in the population - still nowhere near the numbers that turned out to vote on 23.6.16 but a sizable number nonetheless.

Still, at this late stage I can't see a demo of 750k, 1.5m or whatever changing anything. The battle will start in earnest after the UK leaves the EU, especially if it turns out, even just in the short to medium term to be an economic disaster. There will be an almighty backlash against the ring leaders if that proves to be the case. The 2022 general election could prove very interesting, and very divisive.


Point 1 - You may be correct, but it's stretching it a bit to say 750,000 is, maybe, the equivalent of 7.5 million who just couldn't get there....But if 15 million can't be arsed, why should the other 35 million voters be arsed....

Point 2 - So what was the point of Saturday ?

Point 3 - I said the other day - BREXIT in name only will leave the UK with the most left wing Government in Europe ( apart from Belarus, perhaps )
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 06:46
  #16274 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Or perhaps anyone believing that 15%, or even the lesser figure of 8% of London's population was crammed into that space is able to look at a photograph and count. Don't worry - with a few more decades of practice your numeracy may get to the basic counting level (if you try really hard).

PDR

I don't need to take "counting" lessons from anyone, it is up to those claiming those ludicrous figure to do that. But they won't, because they can't.
They were never going to embarrass themselves with a lower figure, to try to boost numbers they even provided free transport.

You may not have heard of the concept of "proof" when promoting an argument, so here's a lesson for you. Pay special attention to the final sentence...

"As practiced, a proof is expressed in natural language and is a rigorous argument intended to convince the audience of the truth of a statement. The standard of rigor is not absolute and has varied throughout history. A proof can be presented differently depending on the intended audience. In order to gain acceptance, a proof has to meet communal statements of rigor; an argument considered vague or incomplete may be rejected. "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_proof

As for the use of the term "gammon", those using it as a slur are obviously unaware that many of their targets have laughed it off and accepted it as a badge of honour, especially as one of those regularly using it is this 34yo adolescent..

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Old 24th Oct 2018, 07:29
  #16275 (permalink)  
 
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So....any thoughts on what came out of cabinet last night, e.g. vague plans that the government might have to requisition ships in the event of a hard Brexit? Or is the preferred option here to carry on arguing until or beyond the end of March about the number of people who were at an event in London?
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 08:32
  #16276 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
So....any thoughts on what came out of cabinet last night, e.g. vague plans that the government might have to requisition ships in the event of a hard Brexit? Or is the preferred option here to carry on arguing until or beyond the end of March about the number of people who were at an event in London?
Yes, I've been thinking about this since I saw the report last night, and frankly, the sheer ignorance of how road freight works, and the issues surrounding a no-deal chaotic departure from the EU on 29.03.19 are breathtaking.

It is suggested that haulier move their trucks away from Calais / Dunkirk to Belgium or The Netherlands. Well as HMG clearly doesn't understand, perhaps they need to be informed by the ferry operators that link spans at ports are largely tailored to the ships that use them. The mega ferries that use Calais (and Dover) simply won't fit the link spans at ports like Ostende or Zeebrugge, so moving the ships will be nigh on impossible. There may be capacity available on routes like Hoek van Holland to Harwich, or Rotterdam to Felixstowe or Hull but the capacity will in now way mitigate possible delays at Calais. And how Eurotunnel are supposed to shift their operation from Coquelles I simply fail to understand.

However, all this is a side show. Presently trucks move across EU borders without manifests being lodged with authorities, and without any transit documentation. It would have been possible for the UK to use the Community Transit system, were it to have been part of the EEA, but we've got a red line for that. So the fall back is some sort of carnet system - the same as, for example, a Belloruss truck would use to enter and leave the EU, with more paperwork, cost and administrative delays. And, once out of the EU trucks will probably need driving permits for some states. None of this appears to have been addressed, and given the time that it takes to implement new customs systems just won't be ready for March 2019.

Then, of course there's customs clearance in UK, which may very probably be the least of our problems.

MPs objecting to Mrs. May's (flawed) plans need to wake up to reality and accept that if they really want Brexit, then there are going to be some very sour pills to swallow (such as the extended transitional period) whilst the nuts and bolts of trade are resolved; similarly some very sour pills for someone (probably the DUP) are going to have to be swallowed to avoid the dreaded hard border. I fear that MPs and politicians in general are too out of touch with reality, and mired in dogma to avoid catastrophe.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 10:01
  #16277 (permalink)  
 
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No need to requisition ships when the government owns a 50% share in 4 RoRo, with the option to take them over fully if needs be.
As for the link spans at Calais et al, there is little difference in size between the vessels plying UK to Calais and UK to Zeebrugge. As I write this, Pride of York (31,785 grt) is alongside in Zeebrugge and Cotes Des Dunes (33,796) is entering Dover. However, this is a bit misleading, these ships and ports focus largely on people (passengers), while carrying a fair bit of cargo. I think most cargo between UK and Europe goes via container vessels, either big ones as part of their normal rotations or via ships classed as container feeders. Admittedly, that is container traffic, rather than road freight but who says road freight has to be door to door? How about road freight to Southampton, Portsmouth, Harwich etc and box freight over the water?
I listened to a senior boss from Stena recently and he was claiming to be terrified of what the current UK v EU argument re Ireland is likely to do to his Irish Sea business. He quoted all the Irish road freight that goes Dublin, Holyhead, Dover, using the UK as a land bridge between Ireland and Europe. He was saying how the loss of that traffic would hurt the UK financially. How? Paddy gets in his wagon in Ireland, drives to Dublin, has a kip on the journey to Holyhead or Liverpool, drives non-stop to Dover and repeats. If he does stop between Liverpool & Dover, he will probably pull out his trusty kettle and have a brew in the cab. He will not be dispensing largesse all along the highways and byways of England or Wales. In other words his journey will add sod all to the UK economy but will add to the wear and tear of the UK's roads.
There's far too much Chicken Licken syndrome being pushed in the media and by politicians with personal agendas. Why don't we all just shut up and see what happens? If it works out with an "All's well", smashing! If it all goes completely tits up, then it will be out with the pitch forks and in with a new government. And of course, which ever is the outcome, it will all be accompanied by some serious murmuring and tutting! We are, after all, British!
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 12:41
  #16278 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
The spin from the remainers is 'Look at this, look what is going to happen after Brexit, we will not be able to cope'.
The spin, as you put it, was faithfully reported last night by several highly placed journalists including but not in any way limited to leave sympathetic Robert Peston, Faisal Islam, Nick Robinson & Adam Boulton. It is not spin, it is a discussion that took place in cabinet, was leaked & reported upon. Once again, and for the nth time on these pages, a Quitler takes an incontrovertible piece of information & twists it into a narrative to suit their own view of the world.

Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
The reality is these are plans being put in place to cover any short term difficulties in certain supply chains. It is possible these issues will be due to problems adjusting on the EU side which we are not able to control. It would be very worrying if these contingency plans were not being put in place and hopefully they will not be needed. Constantly picking these up and spinning it into Brexit fear mongering is helping nobody. As a leave voter I am glad to see plans being put in place for after we leave rather then this constant anti democratic crying and stamping of feet trying to re-run something that didn't go their way.
The reality, which as I've already shown is merely some form of abstract, malleable concept to you is that the highest levels of government are discussing contingency for ameliorating privations the likes of which we have not seen in this country since the second world war.

Irrespective of whether you consider that to be project fear or project fact I would expect anyone of sound mind to be appalled at that prospect. But no, to you, it's sensible precautions. How diminished we are as a nation to have apologists for the worst act of unprecedented self harm in our long history expounding this nonsense gaily as if it's just some sixth form debating society thing while focusing on the real issue which is obviously whether a crowd in London had this or that many people in it. Amazing.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 12:53
  #16279 (permalink)  
 
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As many have said for so long, for the EU it's all about the money.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/756662...brexit-threat/

OK....Just so long as yo know the mentality of the people that the UK is trying to negotiate with.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 13:13
  #16280 (permalink)  
 
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Hussar54,

That article is full of 'might' 'could' 'if' with no actual facts. And it is their club we are leaving, of course they want it to cost money! And some people are amazed that they are not happy with us leaving, not paying the membership (not that we ever paid the full amount) anymore and then demanding access to everything we had before...
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