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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 21st Oct 2018, 08:11
  #16221 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...zone-lbv0rrxb5

Theresa May enters ‘killing zone’

”.........
An ally of David Davis, the former Brexit secretary who is tipped as an interim leader, said May was entering “the killing zone”. One who hopes to succeed added: “Assassination is in the air.” The prime minister has been summoned to plead for her job before the back-bench 1922 committee on Wednesday — a process dubbed “a show trial” by one Tory......

A cabinet minister warned that May was “endangering her own government” by refusing to take a different approach to Brexit. “This is the first time I’ve thought it could fall over,” the minister said. “She’s not listening. That’s kamikaze.”

The immediate threat is from supporters of Davis and Johnson. MPs say Davis’s allies have urged them to put in letters of no confidence. One said: “I got a text saying that history would never forgive me if we let her stay in power.” That comes after Stewart Jackson, Davis’s former chief of staff, last week predicted May “will surely be removed from office” unless her approach to Brexit changes.

A former cabinet minister who also backs Davis compared the prime minister’s performance on Brexit to the appeasement of the Nazis: “There is a view that the party would be regarded as irresponsible to replace her now, but we did turf out Chamberlain in 1940.”

If a vote is triggered, Downing Street aides are planning to lean on Sir Graham Brady, chairman of the 1922 committee, to delay a vote for several weeks to give May time to secure a deal with Brussels. MPs claim that Brady has urged MPs who approach him to hand in a letter to think of the consequences of ousting the prime minister.

In a further headache for May, the former Brexit minister Steve Baker yesterday tabled a series of amendments to the Northern Ireland bill, which is due in the Commons this week. They would enshrine in law pledges by the prime minister that the Brexit deal would not introduce any new regulatory barriers between Great Britain and Northern Ireland without explicit consent from the latter. If passed, they would render illegal the EU’s planned Brexit backstop plan........”



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Old 21st Oct 2018, 08:22
  #16222 (permalink)  
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f...eral-n2079bn3v

Four meetings and a political funeral

It was meant to be the week Theresa May and the EU came together in holy matrimony. Instead, even former allies are deserting her, and MPs say it is hard to see how a leadership challenge can be avoided

“.......
This weekend, the question is whether May faces her political funeral. MPs from all wings of the party are openly plotting against her and — after months of crying wolf about triggering a leadership election — they appear to be serious about forcing a vote of no confidence against her........

Earlier on Tuesday, the prime minister had sought to avoid a revolt from her cabinet by opening the meeting with the words: “This is not a decision-making cabinet.” This was the meeting at which ministers were supposed to sign off her plans for Brexit before taking them to Brussels for key negotiations.

But May already knew her ministers were ready to outvote her on a key facet of the deal — as a result of two other key meetings that had already taken place.

The first came on Sunday when the Brexit secretary, Dominic Raab, raced to Brussels. On the face of it he was heading for a showdown with the EU negotiator, Michel Barnier. In reality, the real goal was to stop in its tracks a deal that had been thrashed out by Oliver Robbins, May’s civil service Brexit negotiator.

To the horror of Raab and other senior ministers, Robbins appeared ready to sign the UK up to a deal that would have seen Britain agree to join a customs union with no end date, while enshrining in law an EU “backstop” plan that would have left Northern Ireland in the orbit of the EU and introduced regulatory barriers between the province and the rest of the EU. “Clearly Olly went too far,” one cabinet minister said. “He agreed the deal and Dom had to go there to unagree it.”

Raab made clear to Barnier that any deal on customs would have to come with an end date or an exit mechanism that could be triggered by Britain alone — or he could not sell the deal to the rest of the cabinet or to parliament. Officials say May was “grumpy” that Raab went so far.

She had grounds to be even grumpier 24 hours later. A group of eight ministers met for a “pizza summit” in the wood-panelled offices of Andrea Leadsom, the leader of the Commons.

Monday night’s gathering also included Raab, Jeremy Hunt, Michael Gove, Penny Mordaunt, Liz Truss, Chris Grayling — and, most crucial of all, the new attorney-general, Geoffrey Cox, who brought two bottles of champagne to accompany their “hot and spicy” pizza.

Cox told the group that any withdrawal deal would become a treaty and enjoy an elevated status in international law, which would make it all but impossible to unpick later. Those present agreed that they would demand to see legal wording before signing up to any deal. One of those present said: “The fundamental thing the pizza group concluded was that there had to be a time limit to any backstop.”

When the eight took their seats at cabinet the next morning, Raab and then Cox made clear a loosely worded agreement with Brussels that a customs union would only be “temporary” — or that agreeing that the two sides would make their “best endeavours” to achieve the outcome Britain wants — would not be binding in law.

Since May first signed Britain up to a backstop deal in December, Brexiteers such as Gove and Boris Johnson have believed they were misled by No 10 on the small print. Cox’s words signalled that they now had the government’s chief legal officer on their side. Cox’s performance was described by a cabinet minister as “a bit like a builder who comes and says, ‘You’ve had the cowboys in here. This is nothing I would have signed off.’”

Gove, who has been largely silent in cabinet in recent weeks, chose the occasion to strike, insisting that he would never back any backstop plan until he had been shown “clear, written, legal advice” on the specific wording.

The Brexiteers had key support from senior ministers who voted remain, including Sajid Javid, the home secretary, and Gavin Williamson, the defence secretary. In another key intervention, the chief whip, Julian Smith, made clear that a customs deal with no end date would never pass in parliament. “I lose 100 MPs if you do this,” he warned.

Gove also used the meeting to demand a “visible increase in no-deal planning”, with weekly updates. He then asked for ministers to “set out a plan for the economic response”. Mark Sedwill, the acting cabinet secretary, is examining whether to convene the government’s emergency Cobra committee. “The approach needs to change from consult and cajole to command and control, where orders are issued,” said a minister who agrees with Gove.

If May felt crestfallen — as usual — she gave little away. “She didn’t really say anything,” one minister said. “No one knows what she thinks but she knows what we think which is why she wouldn’t let us decide anything.”

Those ministers now believe May will have to pivot to a Canada-style trade deal with technical solutions at the Northern Irish border with the republic. But rather than adopt a new approach, May travelled to Brussels on Wednesday for dinner with her fellow leaders. Having been accused of adopting too strident a tone at the recent Salzburg summit, May — in the words of one senior Tory — “overcompensated” and appeared to tell the Irish leader, Leo Varadkar, she was not pushing for a time limit on the customs plan.

“She’s not moving,” a cabinet minister said. “This is the first time I’ve looked at it and thought it could fall over. She’s not listening to people really close to her, including the chief whip. That’s kamikaze.”

As May was addressing her EU counterparts, David Davis — her former Brexit secretary — was speaking to a dinner of the No Turning Back group of Tory MPs. In a devastating assessment of the prime minister’s repeated compromises, he quoted the words of Barnier: “She always says no until she says yes.”..............

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Old 21st Oct 2018, 11:37
  #16223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 68
Posts: 902
Luvvie Hugh Grant tweeted that he was disappointed he couldn't attend the march because he was at his holiday home near here in Eygalieres. To show solidarity he said he would march round the village chanting remainer slogans.

Here's a suggestion he can use for a chant...

"What do we want?"

"$20 blow jobs from pox infested crack whores!"

"When do we want them?"

"Now!"
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 12:16
  #16224 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,903
“The million or so who marched against the Iraq war....”? What’s your point Turin? Does my pointing out the marchers are protesting a democratic decision somehow imply support for invading Iraq?
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 16:01
  #16225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,164
While a determined stayer-never meta quitter yet who had a sound argument for doing so and usally just a huge ignorance of how todays world works-sorry butt hats largely true the biggest problem is that our two party left and right system cannot deal with anissue like this that spans party lines. It also cannot deal witha one off vote where one side can lie and lie and lie without any responsibility or expectation of delivery.
then again we have NI influencing UK politics to a dgree higely greater than its size and importance determines.

And that along with a Brexit sec who is not British (ethnically, not a paper Brit) two parties who are subordinating the countries interest to party issues and extra ordinarily as someone who lived through the 60s and 70s we now find the Conservative party is the one harbouring traitors and carpetbaggers .
What a bloody shambles-

And as for the amusing sheep march it is of course the other way around its the quitters who are from the genus Ovis although they are lambs marching in unison to the slaughter
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 17:37
  #16226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Farnham, Surrey
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And that along with a Brexit sec who is not British (ethnically, not a paper Brit)
Just supports the conjecture that when you scratch the surface of most brexiters the core racism shines through...

Meanwhile :

<stolen from another forum, in turn stolen by them from FB>

LEAVER: I want an omelette.

REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.

LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are.

<He points at a cake>

REMAINER: They’re in the cake.

LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.

REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.

LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.

REMAINER: Icing is good.

LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.

<David Cameron enters>

DAVID CAMERON: OK.

<David Cameron scarpers>

LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?

REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.

LEAVER: Well, get them out.

EU: It’s our cake.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.

REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?

LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.

REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?

LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.

THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.

REMAINER: How?

THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.

REMAINER: Yeah, but…

LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.

EU: It’s our cake.

REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.

LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.

REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.

LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.

REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?

LEAVER: You lost, get over it.

THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.

REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?

THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.

REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.

EU: It’s our cake.

LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.

REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.

LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.

REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.

LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement...

PDR
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 18:39
  #16227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
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PDR while your post is the funniest, best and most informative of any of the thousands on here on the subject I am not quite sure how you might deduce Ia m pro Brexit with my tongue in cheek remarks about Mr Raab.

I am certainly not rascist and if I wanted to be i would quote from a Czech friend of mine about what they think of Mr R , but I am not so i wont .
But thanks again for the brilliant post
PB
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 18:56
  #16228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Just supports the conjecture that when you scratch the surface of most brexiters the core racism shines through...

...

PDR
One of the core principles of a Remoaner is to shout 'racist' at those who want to leave the EU. They are so keen to do so that they often get it totally wrong and it is hilarious to see them try to shoot down their own side with that accusation!!!
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 19:00
  #16229 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
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Amanda Platell said on the Marr Show this morning that comments in the press about 'killing fields' and 'political funerals' is very poor taste. Another in the discussion said yes, especially in the wake of the Jo Cox case. I agree.
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 19:28
  #16230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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How the Police investigation of the Leave Campaign coming along?
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 21:58
  #16231 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by One Outsider View Post
How the Police investigation of the Leave Campaign coming along?
Some of Saturday's demo was going to move on to Scotland Yard around 4pm - haven't heard how that went, I was trying to find a train to Salisbury so couldn't stay for the second demo.
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 22:13
  #16232 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Just supports the conjecture that when you scratch the surface of most brexiters the core racism shines through...

Meanwhile :

<stolen from another forum, in turn stolen by them from FB>

LEAVER: I want an omelette.

REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.

LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are.

<He points at a cake>

REMAINER: They’re in the cake.

LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.

REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.

LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.

REMAINER: Icing is good.

LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.

<David Cameron enters>

DAVID CAMERON: OK.

<David Cameron scarpers>

LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?

REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.

LEAVER: Well, get them out.

EU: It’s our cake.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.

REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?

LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.

REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?

LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.

THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.

REMAINER: How?

THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.

REMAINER: Yeah, but…

LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.

EU: It’s our cake.

REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.

LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.

REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.

LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.

REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?

LEAVER: You lost, get over it.

THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.

REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?

THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.

REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.

EU: It’s our cake.

LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.

REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.

LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.

REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.

LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement...

PDR
Not sure what the omelette has to do with things, but if it's about Brexit then what happened is as follows:

1. A referendum took place on continued EU membership and a majority of people voted leave
2. Britain is now in the (protracted) process of leaving the EU

That's about it really - that simple
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 22:50
  #16233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 54
Posts: 907
The reality is that Saturday's demo had nothing to do with democracy, or a 'peoples vote'. All the Blue and Yellow flags were a bit of a giveaway; this was all about trying to reverse Brexit.
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 23:14
  #16234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,437
Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
The reality is that Saturday's demo had nothing to do with democracy, or a 'peoples vote'. All the Blue and Yellow flags were a bit of a giveaway; this was all about trying to reverse Brexit.
I think you're wrong on all points.

Demonstrations are a part of the democratic political process.

Nobody wants to "reverse Brexit", because it hasn't happened yet. It's only if we fail to stop Brexit that we will have to start a campaign to reverse Brexit.
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 23:33
  #16235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 2,686
Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
“The million or so who marched against the Iraq war....”? What’s your point Turin? Does my pointing out the marchers are protesting a democratic decision somehow imply support for invading Iraq?
No, you suggested it was merely a 'strop' instead of a legitimate concern. If I remember rightly, invading Iraq was also a democratic decision (by parliament) but would anyone deny, in hindsight, that the protesters had a point? Perhaps, it is not unreasonable to think that, those protesting the current situation may have a point.
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Old 22nd Oct 2018, 02:18
  #16236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,903
It’s nonsense to conflate this with invading Iraq. This referendum was the largest democratic exercise in our nations history. Over 17 million people (not including me by the way) voted to leave. So if by “...have a point” you mean “should invalidate the referendum” the answer is absolutely not. No matter how bitterly self-righteous non U.K. residing luvvies and pop-stars complain.
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Old 22nd Oct 2018, 06:51
  #16237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 68
Posts: 902
Strange how the Met Police say they are unable to give an estimate of the attendance when they have done so for previous marches? It has been suggested that the figure was no more than a quarter of the claimed 700,000. In the past the police have contradicted the widely inflated numbers given out by march organisers, backed up by crowd scanning technology.

Maybe Mayor Khan, who attended the march, told Met Commissioner Dick not to embarrass him with an accurate figure.
sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2018, 07:51
  #16238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,668
Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
Strange how the Met Police say they are unable to give an estimate of the attendance when they have done so for previous marches? It has been suggested that the figure was no more than a quarter of the claimed 700,000. In the past the police have contradicted the widely inflated numbers given out by march organisers, backed up by crowd scanning technology.

Maybe Mayor Khan, who attended the march, told Met Commissioner Dick not to embarrass him with an accurate figure.
Even supposing, as you suggest it was a quarter of 700k, then it would still be a big number. I would have expected the mainstream media to have called out the number if they had thought it was a gross over estimate. To suggest that Sadiq Khan has knobbled the Met Police is frankly disingenuous, and total fantasy. The UK isn't (quite) a banana monarchy (yet) and whether you like or dislike a particular politician for their politics or personality it just ins't a runner.

It is pure extreme right wing "fake news".
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Old 22nd Oct 2018, 08:35
  #16239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 1
I think those who don't accept Brexit are living in some sort of bubble aided by the media, I'm fairly certain if you repeated the referendum you would get if anything a slightly higher proportion voting out.
Of course any repeat referendum will not ask the same basic question.

Democracy is dying in the west, it is being replaced by the "he who shouts loudest" methodology that belongs in the dark ages, mob rule is the final destination on that road.
Shamefull, infantile behaviour from an increasing proportion of the population with the millenial curse of not being able to handle not getting everything their own way
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Old 22nd Oct 2018, 09:00
  #16240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,668
Originally Posted by Gault View Post
I think those who don't accept Brexit are living in some sort of bubble aided by the media, I'm fairly certain if you repeated the referendum you would get if anything a slightly higher proportion voting out.
Of course any repeat referendum will not ask the same basic question.

Democracy is dying in the west, it is being replaced by the "he who shouts loudest" methodology that belongs in the dark ages, mob rule is the final destination on that road.
Shamefull, infantile behaviour from an increasing proportion of the population with the millenial curse of not being able to handle not getting everything their own way
First, the question wouldn't be the same; it would likely be about the acceptability of the deal, what ever that may turn out to be; or if there is to be no deal, then whether No Deal or withdraw Art 50 and remain. Any new (if very unlikely referendum) would be based on fact, rather than on a torrent of lies and pious hopes.

Were the last referendum to be rerun, same question, same alternatives, the I believe the result would be different, but probably by a similar margin, and perhaps on a lower turnout, that would resolve nothing.
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