Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 17th Oct 2018, 12:16
  #16201 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
The EU will expand to include Serbia, Moldova and Macedonia - maybe even Albania and, eventually, Ukraine
That would make a second 'Peoples' Referendum interesting - stay in and join up with the Balkans and lose the rebate to pay for them, or leave..

Not sure the result would be as straightforward as some are claiming..: I suspect we would end up in exactly the same position as now arguing over how to leave and what to do about NI.
BAengineer is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 12:27
  #16202 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 75
Posts: 1,859
Thumbs up

Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
My view is that the EU would be a really great option IF it stepped back from wanting to create a replica of the USA, with individual member nations being reduced to subsidiary states with no real control over their own destiny. The common market was a damned good idea, as was the idea of having common standards, to make free trade between members easier.


. . . . .
G-CPTN is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 14:04
  #16203 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 51.50N 1W (ish)
Posts: 1,012
ATNotts:

And they are even bending over backwards to help the UK make it as difficult as possible to have an easy any transit out of Europe - problem is that our politicians are still living in the 19th century (one of them probably in the 18th!!) and they just don't appear to understand that when the UK EU says "jump" the EU UK doesn't reply in unison "how high!!".
I believe my editing makes a more accurate summary. The initial delay in negotiation was a blanket refusal to discuss any future relationship until a financial settlement was agreed, starting with an initial demand of €100 billion. All the EU negotiating thrust has been to delay and obfuscate in the hopes that UK would change its mind (assisted by a number of well meaning and sincere, although I believe misguided) senior UK politicians.

There are signs that they now believe we are serious, and that UK red lines (sovereignty and ability to trade world wide) are as serious as those emnating from Brussels. They want our 39 billion, without making any meaningful concessions.

​​​​​​​The downside is that I don't think Mrs May is very good at poker.
Fitter2 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 14:16
  #16204 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 937
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The absence of understanding of the significance of national identity by those embedded within the European project is the major issue that I think will cause it to unravel, sooner or later. I strongly suspect that the unwillingness of some in the UK to accept losing their own nationality and government, which is the ultimate aim of the European project, lies at the heart of a lot of the anti-EU sentiment we've seen.

My view is that the EU would be a really great option IF it stepped back from wanting to create a replica of the USA, with individual member nations being reduced to subsidiary states with no real control over their own destiny. The common market was a damned good idea, as was the idea of having common standards, to make free trade between members easier.
Well that's suitably ambivalent and risible at the same time.

The question has been posed before.but, since you mentioned it, name the country or countries who are going to surrender their nationality and sovereignty to establish this perpetual urban myth about a "United States of Europe ".

Plus, there is a significant difference between commonality of standards, policies and legislation , all of which are generally beneficial to member states, and the complete removal of a national identity to form part of a homogenous entity aka the " United States of Europe "..

So without any further vacillation, generally to impress the chums here on JB what a decent chap you are, one simple question please.

Would you have preferred to remain in the EU, as I think I may have mentioned once or twice that I did, or, did you want to leave ?.
Krystal n chips is online now  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 14:18
  #16205 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
For the sake of democracy it's important that there is an electoral system that ensures that so far as is possible, every vote really does count.

As I understand it, the French system has an initial vote (on a Sunday - a much more sensible day than a Thursday!) but if no one candidate on the ballot paper gets 50% + 1 vote, then there is a run off between the two highest polling candidates a couple of weeks later. I can see that this system isn't perfect either, it does ensure that the electorate is forced into making a choice between the top two, and ensuring that every vote does count, even if in the second ballot people will be voting for which of the candidates the "dislike least" rather than the one that they actually wanted to vote for. i have never heard in our media how this system goes down with French voters. Do they think it is more democratic than FPTP or PR? Are there calls for change in the French system?

I agree that UKIP would on paper have been in a stronger position had their share of the cote been translated into seats in a PR system, but of course what we don't know is how the UKIP vote, or indeed the popular vote for the other parties would have been effected by a PR system. Obviously from my (remain) perspective a big presence by UKIP in parliament would have been abhorrent, but I am more interested in having a fair system than any down, or upsides from my own political standpoint. If democracy is not to degenerate into electing extremists something has to change.
Yes....That's how it works here.

Having said that, people still vote for party politics, and then, if their party candidate isn't in the Top 2 in Round 1, usually don't bother to vote in Round 2. There isn't a ' None of the above ' option in either Round - although I agree it would be a good idea to have that option.

A few weeks ago, ORAC explained in very good detail how the system works in The Fatherland - where basically you vote for a Party which then more or less decides who will be in Parliament for representing your constituency. It works, I'd have to say, but it results, basically, in constituents having very little ' representation ' for local constituency issues / problems and always results in Coalition Government.

My own feelings are that whether UK, France, Germany or anywhere else, I suppose, it's Party Politics which are at fault. Too many Party Politicians are imposed on the constituencies and in a perfect World, I'd like to see a return to electing politicians as individuals ( OK, 18th Century democracy updated, perhaps ) who would best represent their constituents and not their political masters, with more input from the electorate on individual national issues as they arise, maybe more like the Swiss model, rather than political ideology which is usually slewed in favour of those people and business sectors which finance the different parties.
Hussar 54 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 14:36
  #16206 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 335
Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
There are signs that they now believe we are serious, and that UK red lines (sovereignty and ability to trade world wide) are as serious as those emnating from Brussels. They want our 39 billion, without making any meaningful concessions.
​​​​
As you should very well know, the '39 billion' is not payment for any concessions. It is a debt that the UK government has agreed as being due upon leaving the EU on the date that we chose. There is no requirement for any concessions other than any that might be obtained by negotiation.
.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 14:44
  #16207 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 54
Posts: 907
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
The question has been posed before.but, since you mentioned it, name the country or countries who are going to surrender their nationality and sovereignty to establish this perpetual urban myth about a "United States of Europe ".
And it's been answered before. But since you'll simply either scorn or ignore any constructive attempt to answer the question again, I would advise anyone tempted to respond to save themselves the trouble.
Andy_S is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 15:11
  #16208 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 937
Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
And it's been answered before. But since you'll simply either scorn or ignore any constructive attempt to answer the question again, I would advise anyone tempted to respond to save themselves the trouble.
Not entirely true. There have been some half hearted attempts to answer, but, strangely, no definitive answer.

As for constructive criticism, which on JB means anybody who dares to disagree with the self proposed status quo and isn't politically orientated to the right, generally means criticism of this nature is not welcome. As your suitably dismissive advice confirms.

Feel free to give a definitive answer, naming the country, countries and time scale for the onset and subsequent implementation of the "United States of Europe "..

This isn't an exclusive offer however.....any of the chums may care to answer either in lieu or in support.
Krystal n chips is online now  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 15:11
  #16209 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
And it's been answered before. But since you'll simply either scorn or ignore any constructive attempt to answer the question again, I would advise anyone tempted to respond to save themselves the trouble.

On the basis that the EU already has -

1 - Its own President
2 - Its own Government ( but prefes to call it a Commission )
3 - Its own Parliament
4 - Its own Supreme Court
4 - Its own currency ( mostly )
5 - Its own Central Bank ( mostly )
6 - Its own ' National ' Flag
7 - Its own ' National Anthem '
8 - Its own Embassies and ' Ambassadors '
9 - And is about is launch its own ' Defence Force ' and EU Citizen Passport

then perhaps KnC might give us his understanding of what ' Further and deeper Integration ' could possibly mean.
Hussar 54 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 15:24
  #16210 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 335
Isn't there an EU discussion thread?
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 15:49
  #16211 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
As you should very well know, the '39 billion' is not payment for any concessions. It is a debt that the UK government has agreed as being due upon leaving the EU on the date that we chose. There is no requirement for any concessions other than any that might be obtained by negotiation.
.
I thought it was 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed ' including the Exit Payment ??

Which sounds pretty much more like a discretionary payment to me rather than the UK just giving away the 39 billion for nothing.
Hussar 54 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 16:00
  #16212 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 54
Posts: 907
Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
On the basis that the EU already has -

1 - Its own President
2 - Its own Government ( but prefes to call it a Commission )
3 - Its own Parliament
4 - Its own Supreme Court
4 - Its own currency ( mostly )
5 - Its own Central Bank ( mostly )
6 - Its own ' National ' Flag
7 - Its own ' National Anthem '
8 - Its own Embassies and ' Ambassadors '
9 - And is about is launch its own ' Defence Force ' and EU Citizen Passport
To that list, add its own constitution. It is also floating the idea of centrally planned budgets and MEP’s who are elected at a supranational level.

To briefly answer K&C’s question, no EU member state is surrendering their nationality because none of them, or their citizens, have ever been asked if they wish to do so. And none of them ever will be. But the process of ever greater integration, ever greater centralisation of authority continues incrementally nevertheless. And one day, that process will reach a point where ‘Europe’ has become a de-facto nation state without anyone having ever been asked if they agreed to this. Unless, of course, there is a populist uprising…….

But this thread is about UK Politics, and I fear thread drift……..
Andy_S is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 16:32
  #16213 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,646
You can also add VAT. VAT may be imposed by a State at any rate it wishes inc!uding Zero but it is not free to reduce VAT, once imposed, unless the rate is above the 15% base rate. That is why AD could reduce the rate to 15% but women's products, with a rate below 15% cannot be reduced to 0%.
Pontius Navigator is online now  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 16:43
  #16214 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 937
Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
To that list, add its own constitution. It is also floating the idea of centrally planned budgets and MEP’s who are elected at a supranational level.

To briefly answer K&C’s question, no EU member state is surrendering their nationality because none of them, or their citizens, have ever been asked if they wish to do so. And none of them ever will be. But the process of ever greater integration, ever greater centralisation of authority continues incrementally nevertheless. And one day, that process will reach a point where ‘Europe’ has become a de-facto nation state without anyone having ever been asked if they agreed to this. Unless, of course, there is a populist uprising…….

But this thread is about UK Politics, and I fear thread drift……..
Well ok then, in the interests of what passes for harmony on JB, lets return to the Tory version of producing a rabbit from a hat, in this case, a stovepipe hat and a very baby bunny...cos their cute and lovely....like me in fact.

Coming soon, to a media outlet near you.......the Budget ! Oct 29th to be precise.....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...o-reassure-mps
Krystal n chips is online now  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 16:54
  #16215 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
To that list, add its own constitution. It is also floating the idea of centrally planned budgets and MEP’s who are elected at a supranational level.

To briefly answer K&C’s question, no EU member state is surrendering their nationality because none of them, or their citizens, have ever been asked if they wish to do so. And none of them ever will be. But the process of ever greater integration, ever greater centralisation of authority continues incrementally nevertheless. And one day, that process will reach a point where ‘Europe’ has become a de-facto nation state without anyone having ever been asked if they agreed to this. Unless, of course, there is a populist uprising…….

But this thread is about UK Politics, and I fear thread drift……..

I'll contuinue the Thread Drift for a few minutes more, and then SALLY can come back with UK politics.

I'll add my starter for 10....

Seeing as the EU only spends money ( doesn't it just ! ) and doesn't create wealth in its own right, I reckon within the next couple of years we'll have a 1% or 2% Tax which passes directly to the EU.

It might be direct tax on employee salaries or Social Security costs paid by either of the employees and / or employers or an additional 1% or 2% on VAT which pases directly to the EU

And to PN....

Vat here is below the standard 15% EU rate for a whole shedload of things -

Some foodstuffs; certain non-alcoholic beverages; some pharmaceutical products; domestic passenger transport; intra-community and international road (some exceptions) and inland waterways transport; admission to some cultural services ;admission to amusement parks (with cultural aspect); pay/cable TV; some renovation and repairs of private dwellings; some cleaning in private households; some agricultural supplies; hotel accommodation; restaurants (excluding alcoholic beverages); some domestic waste collection; certain domestic care services; firewood; take away food; bars, cafes and nightclubs (except supply of alcoholic beverages); cut flowers and plants for decorative use; writers and composers etc; some social housing.

All the above are charged ' Lower Rate ' VAT at 10%.

Can't remember when ( perhaps 2008 ?? ) when it was reduced from Standard Rate on, particularly, hotels and restaurants to stimulate Tourism, and then a whole host of other industries pleaded threat of extinction and had their rate cut.

Shamed to say, we had an extension built five years ago and chose the builder who quoted for ' Repair and Renovation of existing dwelling ' rather than the others who quoted for ' Extension of existing dwelling '

OK....Back to SALLY and the UK.....
Hussar 54 is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2018, 17:38
  #16216 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 68
Posts: 902
There was some sort of parade in London today....

sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2018, 20:49
  #16217 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 56
Posts: 6,064
Youse a baaaad boy Siti!
treadigraph is online now  
Old 20th Oct 2018, 23:00
  #16218 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,903
“..some sort of parade”. You’d be referring to the people’s “strop against democracy”?
ShotOne is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2018, 00:49
  #16219 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 2,686
Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
“..some sort of parade”. You’d be referring to the people’s “strop against democracy”?
Hilarious! I suppose the million or so that marched against the Iraq war were just having a strop against mass murder were they?
TURIN is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2018, 04:36
  #16220 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,193
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...ying-z9qlm8ktc

Commons staff strike threat over bullying

House of Commons staff are threatening to strike unless steps are taken to address a culture of bullying and sexual harassment in parliament. Amy Leversidge, assistant general secretary of the FDA, the civil service union, said the loyalty of Commons staff had been “pushed to breaking point” and the union would “support members” if they chose to strike.

The threat of action, which could derail Brexit legislation and halt parliamentary business, comes days after a report revealed that staff in parliament were routinely bullied, harassed and groped by MPs and officials. The investigation, by Dame Laura Cox QC, concluded it would be difficult to make changes while the “current senior House administration” was in place, prompting calls for the Speaker, John Bercow, to resign. Cox recommended that an independent panel take charge of inquiries, including historical allegations.

The FDA fears the House of Commons Commission, which meets on Wednesday, will fail to adopt the proposals in full after some Labour MPs said Brexit was more pressing than bullying. “Industrial action is always a last resort and nobody would take the decision lightly, especially Commons staff who are immensely loyal to parliament,” Leversidge said, adding that without a “full and immediate” implementation of the Cox report, staff would “have little other choice”.

One House clerk said: “It would never have occurred to me to take action, no matter how stressful the working conditions, but now I’m ready to walk out and I know I’m not the only one.”

Last night pressure was mounting on the Speaker to resign as the Labour MP Jess Phillips called on him to go. “The fish rots from the head” she wrote in The Observer.

A Commons spokeswoman said: “We recognise the impact of bullying and harassment described in the report and plan to work closely with staff, unions and workplace equality networks.”

ORAC is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.