Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 23rd Sep 2018, 12:51
  #15861 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 430
Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Nevertheless we should not take mass immigration that is driving much of this sentiment lightly. The potential for further immigration from Africa and Asia is pretty much unlimited and most of the failed states that provide these people are Islamic. The Left ( and I count myself as broadly that) cannot just continue to trot out the old line that we need to help these poor people. If we do that then parties like the AFD will certainly prosper from disaffected people from the lower social classes who disproportionately bear the impact.
Another very, very valid comment. So obvious that it surprises me that many (mostly on the left) just don't see it. The likes of the AFD, and those similar elsewhere, are a direct result the failures of those more to the left on exactly this sort of topic.
Trossie is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2018, 12:54
  #15862 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,440
Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
Corbyn and his anti-Semitic Momentum Stormtroopers are working to make your fears come true.
OK, so Labour are against minorities - "for the many not the few" - and the "few" that they have demonstrated that they are opposed to include the 48%, The 3 Million, Jews, trans people, and the disabled. (There may be other minorities they're against that I haven't spotted yet.)

Assistance from Martin Niemöller's shade is, as you suggest, likely to be welcome.

What Labour somehow seem to have failed to realise though is that everybody is a member of at least one minority, so if they go after all the minorities they'll have nobody left.

(For Labour to ignore The 3 Million in particular is, of course, simply business-as-usual for Labour: these people don't have a vote, so Labour don't GAS about them.)
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2018, 17:19
  #15863 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 430
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
...
(For Labour to ignore The 3 Million in particular is, of course, simply business-as-usual for Labour: these people don't have a vote, so Labour don't GAS about them.)
Surely if That 3 Million became British citizens they would have the vote? And why would they not want British citizenship? If they very specifically don't want British citizenship, they why should anyone (politically) GAS about them?

I have nowt against immigrants but when you go somewhere you should make every effort to 'belong'.
Trossie is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2018, 19:31
  #15864 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,440
Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
And why would they not want British citizenship?
A fair few of them do want British citizenship, but can't acquire it without losing their existing (national and European) citizenships. Whilst some EU27 countries are waiving their usual "no dual nationality" rules, to treat The 3 Million as a special case, not all have done so (yet).
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2018, 21:30
  #15865 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
So, Jezza says if his membership ask for a second referendum (and presumably a third if the second gives the “wrong” answer) then he’ll support it. Presumably now anything and everything in Labour’s manifestos, present and future can evaporate like fairy-dust on the same basis?
ShotOne is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 05:36
  #15866 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: In the circuit
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
So, Jezza says if his membership ask for a second referendum (and presumably a third if the second gives the “wrong” answer) then he’ll support it. Presumably now anything and everything in Labour’s manifestos, present and future can evaporate like fairy-dust on the same basis?
The stuff they really want to do isn't going to be in any manifesto anyway.

I also note that the Labour proposal to force companies with over 250 employees to dstribute shares in the business to employees is based on the idea that employees create the wealth and should share in it. This conveniently ignores the fact that someone has to risk capital and invest in the business for it to create any wealth at all. Perhaps employees should have to invest a sum when they initially join the company to share in the risk as well as the reward.
Groundbased is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 05:44
  #15867 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 69
Posts: 923
sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 06:00
  #15868 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 1,123
Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
The stuff they really want to do isn't going to be in any manifesto anyway.

I also note that the Labour proposal to force companies with over 250 employees to dstribute shares in the business to employees is based on the idea that employees create the wealth and should share in it. This conveniently ignores the fact that someone has to risk capital and invest in the business for it to create any wealth at all. Perhaps employees should have to invest a sum when they initially join the company to share in the risk as well as the reward.
Or, perhaps organisations should not award excessive bonus's to management and dividends to shareholders whilst pleading poverty about staff wages.
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 06:20
  #15869 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 74
Posts: 820
British management has an abysmal record in business. Many of them strive to increase share prices, then sell out to whoever. This has 2 effects; big shareholder bonuses and unemployment for the workers.
As for the "shareholders risk their capital.." No they don't. They very carefully choose where to put their capital, based on company results, strategies and potential risk. Not much different in fact to someone walking into the bookies and placing a bet. The workers don't have the chance to make such decisions, gambles etc. yet they are constantly exhorted to work harder without a corresponding increase in compensation. That creates increased profits for the shareholders and sod all for the workers. You can hardly blame the workers for saying "Hang on. You have made more profits as a result of our increased efforts, yet you take all that money. How fair is that?"
KelvinD is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 06:37
  #15870 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 69
Posts: 923
Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
You can hardly blame the workers for saying "Hang on. You have made more profits as a result of our increased efforts, yet you take all that money. How fair is that?"
I agree, give the workers a share of the profits. But if the company doesn't make any profit, the workers don't get any wages. After all, that is what the shareholders face? How fair is that?
sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 06:53
  #15871 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: In the circuit
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
British management has an abysmal record in business. Many of them strive to increase share prices, then sell out to whoever. This has 2 effects; big shareholder bonuses and unemployment for the workers.
As for the "shareholders risk their capital.." No they don't. They very carefully choose where to put their capital, based on company results, strategies and potential risk. Not much different in fact to someone walking into the bookies and placing a bet. The workers don't have the chance to make such decisions, gambles etc. yet they are constantly exhorted to work harder without a corresponding increase in compensation. That creates increased profits for the shareholders and sod all for the workers. You can hardly blame the workers for saying "Hang on. You have made more profits as a result of our increased efforts, yet you take all that money. How fair is that?"
You're talking about shareholders. I'm talking about entrepreneurs who risk their own capital to start a business that then creates wealth. If the Government wants to promote wage growth it has plenty of tools at it's disposal to do that, minimum wage, living wage, tax incentives, creating economic growth etc

In fact schemes such as this are more likely to put downward pressure on wages as companies reduce compensation to make up for the cost of the scheme. Anyway this scheme is about generating an "Ownership fund" which cannot be traded by the employee and the surplus from which is to be taken by the state as a "Social Dividend". So let's call it what it is; Tax. Quite simply Labour know the cost of their programme is completely unsustainable so enormous, some would say unprecedented, tax rises will be required.
Groundbased is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 07:22
  #15872 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 11,996
ORAC is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 07:27
  #15873 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
If (heaven forbid) Labour gets in, will we be allowed a second “People’s Vote” once the ruinous cost of their policies become evident?
ShotOne is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 08:25
  #15874 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 69
Posts: 923


Looks like she's eaten a few though.
sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 08:51
  #15875 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 416
I'll be giving the news a miss this week. What happens at the Labour conference is of great interest inside their party but of little relevance outside.
If they get into power it won't be because they have won the next election but because the Tories have lost it.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 09:01
  #15876 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,524
Never a truer statement Sally
jindabyne is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 09:09
  #15877 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 11,996
The hysteria and presentation of new policies seems to be generated by the idea that a new election is around the corner, in fact it is not due until May 2022.

Whilst Brexit is dividing the Conservative party, it is unlikely to bring it down, as even the most rabid of Brexit/Remainers are careful to express their support for May (and will equally do so for any successor) and will not support any vote of no confidence.

The position taken by the Labour Party last night that if their is a Brexit deal, and the government can’t pass a vote in the HoC, then there is the possibility that the party might support a “people’s vote”, but with no decision as to whether that would in any way include any question on UK membership of the EU, or just on the form of any future external relationship. At the end of the day, Corbyn and McDonnell are still Brexiteers.

Barring any other crisis on top of Brexit, I see the present government staggering on until 2022. Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas.
ORAC is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 09:21
  #15878 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Or, perhaps organisations should not award excessive bonus's to management and dividends to shareholders whilst pleading poverty about staff wages.
Don't often agree with KnC but absolutely spot on this time.

Maybe some legislation that the total payments to the full Board of Directors ( salaries, bonus, pensions, stock options, non-exec fees, extras, etc ) must not exceed a stipulated percentage of pre-tax profits,

Same should apply to State owned companies.

I think it's the only way to stop what is the unacceptable divide between ' ordinary ' employees' salaries and those of the Directors that is too common and too much these days.
Hussar 54 is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 10:08
  #15879 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Not quite, ORAC: Labour will do their utmost to block ANY deal, good or bad. By their own admission they just want to force another election. The whole Brexit debate for them is about nothing more than getting Jezza a shot at No 10.
ShotOne is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 10:24
  #15880 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 69
Posts: 923
People at the Labour conference are tweeting that the cash machines at the venue have stopped working. How prescient!
sitigeltfel is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.