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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 12th Sep 2018, 08:09
  #15681 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post

TM getting through a pragmatic deal is the least worst option for the UK at the moment. Even she may not succeed, but the likes of JR-M or BoJo certainly won't. Best option is in all honesty a new (not a second) referendum on the terms of the final settlement (or non settlement) whatever is or isn't agreed, with a "remain" option on the ballot paper. There is now a groundswell across all parties for such a referendum; only those who fear losing are against such a referendum.
If there were to be a 'Remain' option on your 'new' referendum that would 'de facto' be a second referendum on Brexit.

If the UK were now to decide to remain within the EU then we will continue to be subsumed and eventually locked into a United States of Europe meanwhile getting our botties thoroughly spanked with a wet lettuce leaf for being naughty.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 08:34
  #15682 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
If there were to be a 'Remain' option on your 'new' referendum that would 'de facto' be a second referendum on Brexit.

If the UK were now to decide to remain within the EU then we will continue to be subsumed and eventually locked into a United States of Europe meanwhile getting our botties thoroughly spanked with a wet lettuce leaf for being naughty.
I don't agree. The public might quite like what they see from the outcome of the negotiations, and there may well (probably were) a significant number of remain voters who voted remain because they were fearful of getting a bad deal.

The only people fearful about a new referendum are those who fear their "leave" project may be rejected in the cold light of day when the facts, rather than the dodgy rhetoric (from both sides) are clear. Those supporting a new referendum on the remain side would / will look pretty stupid if they lost the referendum they were promoting, and there are some pretty high profile people with a lot to lose arguing for it.

As for the "United States of Europe"?? Comeon, open your eyes and ears and look what's going on at the moment. That "dream" if it ever existed, which I doubt, is dead in the water. It is entirely different to the rather vague aim of "ever closer union".
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 08:44
  #15683 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post

As for the "United States of Europe"?? Comeon, open your eyes and ears and look what's going on at the moment. That "dream" if it ever existed, which I doubt, is dead in the water. It is entirely different to the rather vague aim of "ever closer union".
I'm wondering what ' ever closer union ' could possibly consist of while at the same time not being yet another stepping stone towards a ' United States of Europe '
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 08:56
  #15684 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
If there were to be a 'Remain' option on your 'new' referendum that would 'de facto' be a second referendum on Brexit.
And how would that necessarily be a bad thing, if a majority of the electorate thought differently about Brexit after seeing what it actually entailed? Aren't they allowed to change their minds?
Not that this will happen of course. We are on an irreversible course to a very messy and expensive Brexit.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 08:57
  #15685 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
I'm wondering what ' ever closer union ' could possibly consist of while at the same time not being yet another stepping stone towards a ' United States of Europe '
The steps can be extremely small, and infinite in number. At present, with the current rise in "populism" (meaning electing people with no experience, no idea but some rousing populist rhetoric), it looks more like one step forward and two steps back.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 09:04
  #15686 (permalink)  
 
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We are on an irreversible course to a very messy and expensive Brexit.
Very messy and expensive to those on lower and middle incomes in particular, many of whom voted for Brexit. Who will they blame I wonder? The usual suspects in the media will try and nail the blame on Brussels; many more will blame the UK government and Brexiteers.

Messy, not just economically, but also politically, and very possibly socially.

I fear you are right on reversing the leave decision, as the EU is more likely to tell the UK to go sling it's hook, having wasted 2 years of it's time already. If I were them I'd do just that. Doesn't stop people trying to stop the whole process though, especially if they've got the funds and time to do so.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 09:25
  #15687 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
I really don't think you understand leave voters at all.
NO, I like you can't get into the minds of all those who voted leave, no more than we can those who voted remain. However, most people aren't idealists, probably very much liked the idea of taking back control, British jobs for British workers, more money kept in UK (for the NHS?) but did they realise what the potential consequences might have been - nobody talked about a no deal Brexiet and the trade (and therefore employment) consequences of such an outcome. It was going the be the easiest negotiation in history after all.

The only true idealists are those for whom their idealism won't seriously effect their prosperity or way of life; idealism fades away when you're hit in your wallett. That was one of the root causes of the fall of communism.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 09:42
  #15688 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
If you are looking gleefully at the potential, if at present unlikely, fall of TM for any other motive than getting a Labour government then you should be careful what you wish for. If TM falls, and one of the extremists takes on the mantle of PM, without a new election then the likely outcome would be a very hard Brexit which would be no good for the UK (by just about everybody's opinion - aside the extremists, Patrick Winford and a few others) and certainly wouldn't satisfy the mass of the union movement, or a large, if not majority of the population at large.

However I might suggest that to win a decent majority in parliament, Labour need to junk Corbyn and his cronies since how ever pee'd off that rump of the population might be with a hard / no deal Brexit, many simply won't vote for him, especially the older demographic which a) normally votes; and b) can recall the economic disaster that were similar Labour policies back in the 60s and 70s.

TM getting through a pragmatic deal is the least worst option for the UK at the moment. Even she may not succeed, but the likes of JR-M or BoJo certainly won't. Best option is in all honesty a new (not a second) referendum on the terms of the final settlement (or non settlement) whatever is or isn't agreed, with a "remain" option on the ballot paper. There is now a groundswell across all parties for such a referendum; only those who fear losing are against such a referendum.
First, let me assure you I am merely enthusiastic about the demise, which is imminent , of Treeza but would be decidedly ecstatic with the demise of the current Tory Gov't.....who wouldn't be given their draconian cuts across society. However, I am very well aware of the extremists as you define them whose plans for the UK are decidedly retrogressive and that's putting it mildly.

I think I've also worked out Corbyn may not be the most popular Labour leader.....this from sources other than JB no less ! That said, I agree he lacks the gravitas, at times. required for a potential PM but, he's been in politics long enough to know that when the opportunity to become PM is presented, he's not going to risk losing it. And despite the paranoia on here about the "apocalypse " of a Labour Gov't he's got to listen and act on the advice of those in the party who also wish to return to Gov't on behalf of a UK electorate that's been subjected to social engineering on a grand scale and who need the damage reversed.

And they are still continuing this strategy ....

https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...ransport-costs

A new referendum ?.......not a cat in hells chance no matter how it's worded

The UK has always been referendum averse and the debacle of the last one isn't exactly conducive to changing this stance. If, and it's a big if, there is another referendum, it will be a couple of generations hence because no politician of any hue will dare risk such. By then, of course, the ramifications of the last one will have become unpleasant reality for the UK's population .....

"The United States of Europe "....oh man, come on ! that's one of the great urban myths of our time and always has been.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 09:45
  #15689 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
NO, I like you can't get into the minds of all those who voted leave, no more than we can those who voted remain. However, most people aren't idealists, probably very much liked the idea of taking back control, British jobs for British workers, more money kept in UK (for the NHS?) but did they realise what the potential consequences might have been - nobody talked about a no deal Brexiet and the trade (and therefore employment) consequences of such an outcome. It was going the be the easiest negotiation in history after all.

The only true idealists are those for whom their idealism won't seriously effect their prosperity or way of life; idealism fades away when you're hit in your wallett. That was one of the root causes of the fall of communism.
At today's SOTEU address, Mr Juncker spoke about nearly everything the the EU has achieved. He spoke about the future. His message was clear, more EU integration, tax, defence EU sovereignty etc. He, IMHO, made it sound like nationalism was bad for countries, but good when it was the EU.

What he failed to address was the increasing voices of those who didn't want the direction the EU was heading. He was totally ignoring what is happening and what is concerning a small percentage(at the moment) of the EU.

Surely burying your head in the sand and hoping those people will go away is not the way to rule?
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 10:46
  #15690 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
The steps can be extremely small, and infinite in number. At present, with the current rise in "populism" (meaning electing people with no experience, no idea but some rousing populist rhetoric), it looks more like one step forward and two steps back.
And these extremely small steps, and infinite in number .consist of ??

And ever thought that the rise in populism / nationalism in some ( or should that be a lot of ) EU member states is precisely because of ' ever closer integration ' being rammed down peoples' throats by other politicians and chancers who have no connection with those countries other than through their positions in the EU ??

No doubt a not needed reminder, but read again about the rise of National Socialism in Germany in the 20s and 30s - there are many parallels of the root causes in the way that the EU decides on / legislates on more and more and more ' on behalf of ' its own members' elected and supposedly sovereign governments in areas such as fiscal policy and taxation ; defence ; foreign policy ; legislative structures ; etc, etc, and yet there's seemingly even more interference still to come with ' ever closer integration '

The National Socialists played on the interference by foreign politicians in post WW1 Germmany.

Trouble is, the EU just refuse to learn from history.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 11:04
  #15691 (permalink)  
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Why am I not in the least surprised.......

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...iament-despite

Jeremy Corbyn aide working in Parliament despite being refused security clearance

A top aide to Jeremy Corbyn has continued working in his Commons office despite being refused a Parliamentary pass over security concerns, it has emerged.

Iram Awan, the Labour leader’s private secretary, has been working in Parliament for more than nine months despite failing a Counter Terrorist Check over concerns about her known associates, the Huffington Post has reported.

Ms Awan took over the top role last year after her predecessor, Laura Parker, left the leader's office to become the national co-ordinator of Momentum But despite failing the background security checks which anyone seeking to work in Parliament must go through, Ms Awan has continued to enter Westminster via a visitor’s entrance, before being escorted to Mr Corbyn’s office by one of his team.

Huffington Post claims that Mr Corbyn was aware of the refusal to grant Ms Awan security clearance, but that the exact reason had not been communicated to his office........

Official Government guidance on the vetting policy states: “[The background checks] are all intended to allow Parliament to assess whether individuals who are to be employed in sensitive posts of critical functions might represent a security risk directly or indirectly.” It adds that an application for clearance can be refused when there are concerns about “an individual’s involvement or connection with activities, organisations or individual’s associated with the threats described in this Statement (or any similar new threats that emerge).”

A Westminster source told PoliticsHome that without proper clearance, Ms Awan should not be able to access Parliament's secure IT network. They said: "Without security clearance she won't have access to the Parliament network, so someone else must be logging her on. That person is committing a breach, possibly an offence, and is liable to have their own clearance revoked."

A Parliamentary spokesperson suggested that Ms Awan's arrangement could be a breach of strict rules regarding access to the Commons. They said: “Visitor passes are for visitors only; they cannot be used to carry out work on the parliamentary estate. While we are unable to comment on specific cases, any alleged breach of the rules on passes will be investigated by the House authorities.” They added: “Anyone carrying out work on the estate must have been through the vetting process and hold a Parliamentary pass. Anyone working on the estate on a visitor pass would be in breach of this rule.”
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 13:35
  #15692 (permalink)  
 
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The vile abuse levelled JRM, his children and nanny is being condemned by nearly everyone.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...ushed-13231824

I used the Daily Mirror link because it thinks it important to mention that he is an OE, married into the aristocracy and lives in a £5.6m house. Maybe they feel that his children deserve the abuse because of who their father is.

"Labour MP Stella Creasy said: "This is sick. You can see how upset his kids are.

"This isn't leftwing or justified. Whatever disagreements you have with Jacob Rees-Mogg targeting his children and family is beyond the pale because no politicians family should ever be considered fair game."


Oh, but it is left wing and a direct result of the Corbyn/ McDonell/Momentum axis of terrorist worshiping thuggery that now defines the Labour party.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 15:16
  #15693 (permalink)  
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Isn't this the rag run by Ian Bone, the man in the flatcap?

News - Class War

It mystifies as to why Britain, a country not known for any great bipartisan honesty in its freedom of speech policies, should permit such hatred and incitement to sectarian violence and destruction.
Can you imagine what the country would soon be like were Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne and their Communist storm troopers Momentum, to win the next election. Why, the place would be like that other state one is really not allowed to mention. (Did you know that Goebbel's private country estate outside Berlin is on the market, again).
What you need in Britain, Frankly speaking, as they said in Spain, is an El Trumpo.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 15:39
  #15694 (permalink)  
 
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Tom Watson reverses his Diabetes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45495384

"I feel great. I feel absolutely fantastic. Chilled out, I feel like my IQ has gone up. I feel younger. It's a great feeling,"
It cannot have increased it that much as he is still in the Labour party
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 17:15
  #15695 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
The vile abuse levelled JRM, his children and nanny is being condemned by nearly everyone.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...ushed-13231824

I used the Daily Mirror link because it thinks it important to mention that he is an OE, married into the aristocracy and lives in a £5.6m house. Maybe they feel that his children deserve the abuse because of who their father is.

"Labour MP Stella Creasy said: "This is sick. You can see how upset his kids are.

"This isn't leftwing or justified. Whatever disagreements you have with Jacob Rees-Mogg targeting his children and family is beyond the pale because no politicians family should ever be considered fair game."


Oh, but it is left wing and a direct result of the Corbyn/ McDonell/Momentum axis of terrorist worshiping thuggery that now defines the Labour party.
Siti ( sans the old boy in this instance)

Just a few points please.

First, J R-M's background does have a relevance and it's been mentioned innumerable times on here, in mainstream media, mainstream satire "HIGNFY" being the classical example because it's fair game to comment as much and he's quite capable of playing along with that, in fact, he's very entertaining at times when he does.

BUT, there's always been an unwritten rule across all forms and sources of commentary when it comes to politicians ......wives, partners, children, family, ALL are to be left alone.

A quick "Wiki" will tell everybody all they need to know about Bone and "Class War "....they represent only a very minimal, but at times vocal, and niche demographic.

They do not, as you so less than eloquently put it, represent in any way the Labour party, or Labour supporters like myself, or, I suspect, millions of other Labour supporters and socialists / liberal minded people across the UK by any stretch of the imagination and never have or will.

But you may, just may, wish to consider what motivates them and where they find their motivation from......the last over emotive sentence perhaps ?

Here's the BBC report.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45501004


,
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 17:33
  #15696 (permalink)  
 
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Angry

Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
The vile abuse levelled JRM, his children and nanny is being condemned by nearly everyone.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...ushed-13231824

I used the Daily Mirror link because it thinks it important to mention that he is an OE, married into the aristocracy and lives in a £5.6m house. Maybe they feel that his children deserve the abuse because of who their father is.

"Labour MP Stella Creasy said: "This is sick. You can see how upset his kids are.

"This isn't leftwing or justified. Whatever disagreements you have with Jacob Rees-Mogg targeting his children and family is beyond the pale because no politicians family should ever be considered fair game."


Oh, but it is left wing and a direct result of the Corbyn/ McDonell/Momentum axis of terrorist worshiping thuggery that now defines the Labour party.
For those simpletons who wish to defend the Labour leadership maybe they could explain what the following words mean. They were spoken by Mr Mcdonnell.

Mr McDonnell told a Unite the Resistance conference he wants to live in a country where “no Tory MP can travel anywhere in the country or show their face in public without being challenged”.

He told the Unite the Resistance rally that elected Conservative MPs should be targeted because they are “social criminals”.

Incidents like this could escalate, as people are only to aware.

Labour were meant to stand on a ,"kinder type of politics".



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Old 12th Sep 2018, 18:08
  #15697 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
BUT, there's always been an unwritten rule across all forms and sources of commentary when it comes to politicians ......wives, partners, children, family, ALL are to be left alone.
,
Twaddle. Refer back to the Daily Fail attacks on Ed Milliband's father, Gazzilions of attacks on Cheri Blair, press coverage of Mark Thatcher's various pecadillos, tabloid stinging Jack Straw's son in a drug deal, tabloid ridiculing of Tony Blair's son when he had the temerity to get pissed after finishing his A-levels etc etc etc.

So there is no basis for your claim, I'm afraid. It's what Dirty Donald would call a Fake Fact...

PDR
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 05:46
  #15698 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Twaddle. Refer back to the Daily Fail attacks on Ed Milliband's father, Gazzilions of attacks on Cheri Blair, press coverage of Mark Thatcher's various pecadillos, tabloid stinging Jack Straw's son in a drug deal, tabloid ridiculing of Tony Blair's son when he had the temerity to get pissed after finishing his A-levels etc etc etc.

So there is no basis for your claim, I'm afraid. It's what Dirty Donald would call a Fake Fact...

PDR
Yours is the fake fact, and a desperate one at that.

Everyone of those you mention had said or done something to bring them to the attention of the press.
None of them were little kids, and all were responsible for their own actions.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 06:41
  #15699 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
Yours is the fake fact, and a desperate one at that.

Everyone of those you mention had said or done something to bring them to the attention of the press.
None of them were little kids, and all were responsible for their own actions.
Siti old boy !

A truly wonderful piece of insight here !......alas, the only reason thou doth not get a 100% mark is because thou failed to mention the source was that champion of ecology and the removal of plastic bags, when not condemning the judiciary as being "Enemies of the people ! " that is...., the Mail. However, I was referring to responsible journalism and media sources so your omission is understandable and likewise PDR's confusion.

Thankfully, today's Excess has headlines that could have been lifted straight from JB in respect of this event......this deviation however may cause some confusion for the readership as I understand the remnants of a tropical storm are heading for the UK next week......so millions are destined to die when it arrives !

For those simpletons who wish to defend the Labour leadership maybe they could explain what the following words mean. They were spoken by Mr Mcdonnell""

Certainly, and as an established and life long simpleton I can speak with some authority here, it's called....... political rhetoric

But I am sure you would agree "social criminals " is suitably definitive .......
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 06:50
  #15700 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
Yours is the fake fact, and a desperate one at that.

Everyone of those you mention had said or done something to bring them to the attention of the press.
None of them were little kids, and all were responsible for their own actions.
The point is that none of them were public figures in their own right - the only reason they were of interest to the press was because they were family of a public figure. There were no press rants about the millions of OTHER kids who got pissed after their A-levels, or the hundreds of fathers of non-public figures who had been members of the communist party in the 50s. They were only public figures "by proxy", just like JRM's kids, and so the comparison is valid. So (as usual) you are suffering a bout of testicular verbosity.

The claimed fact is proven fake.

PDR
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