UK politics - Hamsterwheel
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: A place in the sun
Age: 79
Posts: 965
And sometimes the UK government proposes and argues in favour of an EU Regulation or Directive (there is a difference) and then, when it is agreed and comes into force, denies all responsibility and blames 'so-called unelected bureaucrats' in Brussels. A very convenient way of deflecting any unpopularity at home!


Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
The LibDems are still there - they got 7.9% support for remaining in the EU at last years election. The Parties proposing to leave the EU got 82.4% support.

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 68
Posts: 58
Disingenuous to say the least . We know that more than half of Labour voters are pro Remain. After the shenanigans led by DD and now Raab C Brexit I would not be surprised if as many Tory voters are too.


Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 68
Posts: 58
Whatever else we know, we do know that Labour voters are now comprised largely of intellectuals. The Islington set probably have the highest academic qualifications of any political cohort. My experience of Tory councillors was that they largely comprised self employed "businessmen" who went bust fairly regularly. Whether academic qualifications help you navigate life and everyday matters is another question entirely. I always found both groups to be equally out of touch in many ways.

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 427

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: North of the South Pole
Posts: 1,013
Can I ask a serious question? What are the arguments for staying in the EU? Honestly, I'm not being sarcastic but, being a long term eurosceptic, I may have been blinkered during the referendum campaign.
So please, could someone spell out the reasons for remaining?
So please, could someone spell out the reasons for remaining?

Está servira para distraerle.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 4
The leadership of the old Labour Party, now the Marxist Momentum, hasn't been about Corbyn for a long time. He is now nothing more than a Trojan Horse for John McDonnell, the self confessed Marxist, whose financial ideas of revenue raising and distribution can be gleaned from a read of the pages of the Labour Representation Committee, a group of which McDonnell was the co founder and is today the president.
As to Brexit, the çi devant Labour Party will be whipped to support whatever deal leads to a Brexit that will allow the party to save face with the unions. On no account though will the opposition party support a remain in the EU position. This is quite simply because, outside the EU, McDonnell, as either Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Prime Minister, will be able to initiate any tax raising polices that he sees fit and which confirm to his radical Marxist ideas. He would not be able to do this from the position within the EU in which Britain stands today.
The Marxists in Britain have played a long game for many years, such has always been the nature of that extreme political philosophy. That philosophy dictates that they're not really even worried as to when they might win a general election. They will win one eventually and having done so will introduce legislation and measures to ensure that they stay in power for decades rather than years. Such too is the nature of Marxism.
As to Brexit, the çi devant Labour Party will be whipped to support whatever deal leads to a Brexit that will allow the party to save face with the unions. On no account though will the opposition party support a remain in the EU position. This is quite simply because, outside the EU, McDonnell, as either Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Prime Minister, will be able to initiate any tax raising polices that he sees fit and which confirm to his radical Marxist ideas. He would not be able to do this from the position within the EU in which Britain stands today.
The Marxists in Britain have played a long game for many years, such has always been the nature of that extreme political philosophy. That philosophy dictates that they're not really even worried as to when they might win a general election. They will win one eventually and having done so will introduce legislation and measures to ensure that they stay in power for decades rather than years. Such too is the nature of Marxism.

Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,911
Excellent article that skewers Owen Jones - and Jeremy Corbyn.....
https://thegerasites.wordpress.com/2...funny-anymore/
https://thegerasites.wordpress.com/2...funny-anymore/

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 68
Posts: 58
But they are already skewered in the minds of 90% of people. It's only the pro Palestinian Momentum loons who believe anything else. Of course the press will use this against Corbyn but half of Labour voters want him gone anyway. A bit like the Tory friend I am staying with at present who insists that May is a traitor and should be strung from the yardarm.

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,055
- To ensure the continued open border between UK and Republic of Ireland (probably, politically the most important reason)
- To ensure continued unfettered access to European markets for the many international businesses that have chosen to base themselves in the UK as their country of choice within the EU. Also to ensure the UK financial services industry retains, and can grow it's influence across Europe.
- To ensure all our population has free, unfettered access to working and living throughout the EU
- To ensure our working population retains the protections that would never have been brought in were the UK not pushed, shoved and cajoled into accepting (annual leave, working time etc)
- To enable our fruit and veg farmers, hospitality providers, road hauliers have free access to workers who want to do the work that frankly many Brits who are unemployed don't want to, not can't, do.
That'll do for starters. I'm sure other among the enlightened on this thread can come up with a few more.

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 356
I was hoping that post would be ignored. There is more than enough discussion for Zebedee to read on the two Brexit threads, without getting this one closed as well.
We will all see what actually happens in a year's time.
We will all see what actually happens in a year's time.

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 427
Having been in and out of the EU and its Customs Union several times recently to Jersey and Switzerland, I fail to see how the Northern Ireland border should be a 'problem' unless some are mischievously trying to make it a problem. From what I have seen, the UK government certainly has no desire to make it a problem. So where is the 'problem'?

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,055
Having been in and out of the EU and its Customs Union several times recently to Jersey and Switzerland, I fail to see how the Northern Ireland border should be a 'problem' unless some are mischievously trying to make it a problem. From what I have seen, the UK government certainly has no desire to make it a problem. So where is the 'problem'?
a) Switzerland is within the EEA (the UK government won't join the EEA)
b) Switzerland is within Schengen. (The UK government wouldn't join that either)
There used to be pretty strong border controls between Switzerland and Germany before the Swiss signed up to Schengen.
The EEA, in my opinion isn't a good option, insofar as it makes the UK a rule taker, rather an involved in the decision making process. Other countries are willing to accept that minus point however as a trade off for trade benefits. If the UK did do an about turn on the EEA, then it's frankly better off tearing up the referendum result, or at least ask the public if they'd prefer to go along with EEA membership.

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 427
How come Jersey works and somehow this is 'complicated' when it comes to the Northern Ireland border? What about Guernsey, or the Isle of Mann? They are all outside the EU and its Customs Area.
I am convinced that it is just mischief-makers determined to cause trouble with the Northern Ireland border for their own narrow-minded ends. And I don't see the UK wanting to make that mischief.

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 69
Posts: 917
When people attack a Left wing bookshop, the BBC labels them "fascists".
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895
But when another group attack Jacob Rees-Moggs house, garden and car, they are simply "vandals".
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895
I'm glad they have cleared that up as there is obviously no political motive behind the latter.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895
But when another group attack Jacob Rees-Moggs house, garden and car, they are simply "vandals".
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895
I'm glad they have cleared that up as there is obviously no political motive behind the latter.


Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 356
When people attack a Left wing bookshop, the BBC labels them "fascists".
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,055
Ireland is not within Schengen. The UK and Ireland have common travel area that goes back a long, long time before Schengen.
How come Jersey works and somehow this is 'complicated' when it comes to the Northern Ireland border? What about Guernsey, or the Isle of Mann? They are all outside the EU and its Customs Area.
I am convinced that it is just mischief-makers determined to cause trouble with the Northern Ireland border for their own narrow-minded ends. And I don't see the UK wanting to make that mischief.
How come Jersey works and somehow this is 'complicated' when it comes to the Northern Ireland border? What about Guernsey, or the Isle of Mann? They are all outside the EU and its Customs Area.
I am convinced that it is just mischief-makers determined to cause trouble with the Northern Ireland border for their own narrow-minded ends. And I don't see the UK wanting to make that mischief.
If the UK and EU were to split with the "no deal" scenario so beloved of Liam Fox and his extreme Brexit cronies; the chances of Northern Ireland's economy going pear shaped, and worse, a potential return to the troubles is probably too serious to contemplate.
Jersey and Guernsey are not members of the EU, and goods require customs clearance when they are landed in the EU (the UK for the most part). How they have got around the question of physical borders I really don't know, but I imagine that because they are Islands the water negates some of the practical problems. Isle of Man is within the UK customs area and no clearance of goods is required. All these three examples are centuries old, and not particularly politically sensitive.

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: North of the South Pole
Posts: 1,013
- To ensure the continued open border between UK and Republic of Ireland (probably, politically the most important reason)
- To ensure continued unfettered access to European markets for the many international businesses that have chosen to base themselves in the UK as their country of choice within the EU. Also to ensure the UK financial services industry retains, and can grow it's influence across Europe.
- To ensure all our population has free, unfettered access to working and living throughout the EU
- To ensure our working population retains the protections that would never have been brought in were the UK not pushed, shoved and cajoled into accepting (annual leave, working time etc)
- To enable our fruit and veg farmers, hospitality providers, road hauliers have free access to workers who want to do the work that frankly many Brits who are unemployed don't want to, not can't, do.
That'll do for starters. I'm sure other among the enlightened on this thread can come up with a few more.
The Irish border is a non-issue. The UK government, the EU and the Irish government have all stated that they have no intention of imposing a hard border.
Trade related concerns may be real, but they're manageable and there may be as much upside as downside.
Yes, the right to live and work anywhere in the EU is a useful facility, for those few lucky enough to take advantage. It is of course, more of an inward than an outward flow of labour, due to the English language and the lower wages in many countries. But it was possible to work and live in Europe pre EU, though not so easy as now.
This country lead the world with equal rights for female workers and other 'just' legislation. We can give workers as much protection as society demands, once we've left. We didn't need the EU to tell us to do the right thing in the past and we won't in the future.
If I were a farmer, or any sort of employer, then Poles would be my choice of employee - they're great people, brilliant workers. But it would be better for the UK if our unemployed were encouraged to do the work. Farmers/supermarkets/consumers can afford another 10p on the price of a bag of spuds to encourage our reluctant workers.
