UK politics - Hamsterwheel

[Bergerie1]

And sometimes the UK government proposes and argues in favour of an EU Regulation or Directive (there is a difference) and then, when it is agreed and comes into force, denies all responsibility and blames 'so-called unelected bureaucrats' in Brussels. A very convenient way of deflecting any unpopularity at home!

[BAengineer]

Originally Posted by Effluent Man

But what? May is in hock to the Tory Right, Corbyn to the left. Both seem committed to that whose name we dare not speak. We desperately need a third party.

The LibDems are still there - they got 7.9% support for remaining in the EU at last years election. The Parties proposing to leave the EU got 82.4% support.

[Effluent Man]

Disingenuous to say the least . We know that more than half of Labour voters are pro Remain. After the shenanigans led by DD and now Raab C Brexit I would not be surprised if as many Tory voters are too.

[BAengineer]

Originally Posted by Effluent Man

Disingenuous to say the least . We know that more than half of Labour voters are pro Remain.

Are you sure?. We keep getting told that Remain voters are far more educated than the rest of us yokels so did they really vote for a Party promising to leave the EU?

[Effluent Man]

Whatever else we know, we do know that Labour voters are now comprised largely of intellectuals. The Islington set probably have the highest academic qualifications of any political cohort. My experience of Tory councillors was that they largely comprised self employed "businessmen" who went bust fairly regularly. Whether academic qualifications help you navigate life and everyday matters is another question entirely. I always found both groups to be equally out of touch in many ways.

[Trossie]

Originally Posted by Effluent Man

We know that more than half of Labour voters in London are pro Remain.

There, fixed it for you.

(Have you spoken to many Labour voters in, say, Sunderland?)

[Effluent Man]

Taking 100 as a base Labour voter support for Remain was 125. Lib Dem was 135 and Tory 87. (Populous)

[ZeBedie]

Can I ask a serious question? What are the arguments for staying in the EU? Honestly, I'm not being sarcastic but, being a long term eurosceptic, I may have been blinkered during the referendum campaign.

So please, could someone spell out the reasons for remaining?

[cavortingcheetah]

The leadership of the old Labour Party, now the Marxist Momentum, hasn't been about Corbyn for a long time. He is now nothing more than a Trojan Horse for John McDonnell, the self confessed Marxist, whose financial ideas of revenue raising and distribution can be gleaned from a read of the pages of the Labour Representation Committee, a group of which McDonnell was the co founder and is today the president.
As to Brexit, the çi devant Labour Party will be whipped to support whatever deal leads to a Brexit that will allow the party to save face with the unions. On no account though will the opposition party support a remain in the EU position. This is quite simply because, outside the EU, McDonnell, as either Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Prime Minister, will be able to initiate any tax raising polices that he sees fit and which confirm to his radical Marxist ideas. He would not be able to do this from the position within the EU in which Britain stands today.
The Marxists in Britain have played a long game for many years, such has always been the nature of that extreme political philosophy. That philosophy dictates that they're not really even worried as to when they might win a general election. They will win one eventually and having done so will introduce legislation and measures to ensure that they stay in power for decades rather than years. Such too is the nature of Marxism.

[ORAC]

Excellent article that skewers Owen Jones - and Jeremy Corbyn.....

https://thegerasites.wordpress.com/2...funny-anymore/

[Effluent Man]

But they are already skewered in the minds of 90% of people. It's only the pro Palestinian Momentum loons who believe anything else. Of course the press will use this against Corbyn but half of Labour voters want him gone anyway. A bit like the Tory friend I am staying with at present who insists that May is a traitor and should be strung from the yardarm.

[ATNotts]

Originally Posted by ZeBedie

Can I ask a serious question? What are the arguments for staying in the EU? Honestly, I'm not being sarcastic but, being a long term eurosceptic, I may have been blinkered during the referendum campaign.

So please, could someone spell out the reasons for remaining?

• To ensure the continued open border between UK and Republic of Ireland (probably, politically the most important reason)
• To ensure continued unfettered access to European markets for the many international businesses that have chosen to base themselves in the UK as their country of choice within the EU. Also to ensure the UK financial services industry retains, and can grow it's influence across Europe.
• To ensure all our population has free, unfettered access to working and living throughout the EU
• To ensure our working population retains the protections that would never have been brought in were the UK not pushed, shoved and cajoled into accepting (annual leave, working time etc)
• To enable our fruit and veg farmers, hospitality providers, road hauliers have free access to workers who want to do the work that frankly many Brits who are unemployed don't want to, not can't, do.

That'll do for starters. I'm sure other among the enlightened on this thread can come up with a few more.

[Sallyann1234]

I was hoping that post would be ignored. There is more than enough discussion for Zebedee to read on the two Brexit threads, without getting this one closed as well.
We will all see what actually happens in a year's time.

[Trossie]

Originally Posted by ATNotts

• To ensure the continued open border between UK and Republic of Ireland (probably, politically the most important reason)
• ....

Having been in and out of the EU and its Customs Union several times recently to Jersey and Switzerland, I fail to see how the Northern Ireland border should be a 'problem' unless some are mischievously trying to make it a problem. From what I have seen, the UK government certainly has no desire to make it a problem. So where is the 'problem'?

[ATNotts]

Originally Posted by Trossie

Having been in and out of the EU and its Customs Union several times recently to Jersey and Switzerland, I fail to see how the Northern Ireland border should be a 'problem' unless some are mischievously trying to make it a problem. From what I have seen, the UK government certainly has no desire to make it a problem. So where is the 'problem'?

That is becuase:-

a) Switzerland is within the EEA (the UK government won't join the EEA)
b) Switzerland is within Schengen. (The UK government wouldn't join that either)

There used to be pretty strong border controls between Switzerland and Germany before the Swiss signed up to Schengen.

The EEA, in my opinion isn't a good option, insofar as it makes the UK a rule taker, rather an involved in the decision making process. Other countries are willing to accept that minus point however as a trade off for trade benefits. If the UK did do an about turn on the EEA, then it's frankly better off tearing up the referendum result, or at least ask the public if they'd prefer to go along with EEA membership.

[Trossie]

Originally Posted by ATNotts

b) Switzerland is within Schengen. (The UK government wouldn't join that either)

Ireland is not within Schengen. The UK and Ireland have common travel area that goes back a long, long time before Schengen.

How come Jersey works and somehow this is 'complicated' when it comes to the Northern Ireland border? What about Guernsey, or the Isle of Mann? They are all outside the EU and its Customs Area.

I am convinced that it is just mischief-makers determined to cause trouble with the Northern Ireland border for their own narrow-minded ends. And I don't see the UK wanting to make that mischief.

[sitigeltfel]

When people attack a Left wing bookshop, the BBC labels them "fascists".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895

But when another group attack Jacob Rees-Moggs house, garden and car, they are simply "vandals".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895

I'm glad they have cleared that up as there is obviously no political motive behind the latter.

[Sallyann1234]

Originally Posted by sitigeltfel

When people attack a Left wing bookshop, the BBC labels them "fascists".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895

Wrong! That was not a BBC label. The BBC were quoting what Billy Bragg had said. Hence the use of quotation marks in their title.

[ATNotts]

Originally Posted by Trossie

Ireland is not within Schengen. The UK and Ireland have common travel area that goes back a long, long time before Schengen.

How come Jersey works and somehow this is 'complicated' when it comes to the Northern Ireland border? What about Guernsey, or the Isle of Mann? They are all outside the EU and its Customs Area.

I am convinced that it is just mischief-makers determined to cause trouble with the Northern Ireland border for their own narrow-minded ends. And I don't see the UK wanting to make that mischief.

I wish it was, but it's not. Imagine, if you will, the pandemonium there would be in sections of the UK press, not to mention among the majority of the British public (me included!) if the Turkish / Bulgarian border, or the Ukraine / polish border wasn't a hard border. They are both EU external frontiers that we and all other states insist are properly controlled, hence the requirement for Frontex. The border on the island of Ireland is, or at least will be sometime between April 2019 and January 1 2021 exactly the same - an EU external border, which is why the EU is pretty insistent that it is such, unless the UK and EU can come to some sensible accommodation. That sensible accommodation could be EEA, perhaps the (or at least "a") customs Union, or something else workable that so hasn't been dreamed up; and we're not far short of the dream turning into a nightmare as the proverbial "clock is ticking". The claim that the N.I border is somehow different just doesn't wash; the argument that it should because "we're British" likewise. The problem is that the mechanisms of the Good Friday agreement were agreed when nobody, apart from a very few MPs are pressure groups, ever contemplated the UK walking away from the EU, and that just makes matters even more difficult to resolve. It would be easier if the Single Market had never been invented; but it was and it will continue long after the UK has exited stage left.

If the UK and EU were to split with the "no deal" scenario so beloved of Liam Fox and his extreme Brexit cronies; the chances of Northern Ireland's economy going pear shaped, and worse, a potential return to the troubles is probably too serious to contemplate.

Jersey and Guernsey are not members of the EU, and goods require customs clearance when they are landed in the EU (the UK for the most part). How they have got around the question of physical borders I really don't know, but I imagine that because they are Islands the water negates some of the practical problems. Isle of Man is within the UK customs area and no clearance of goods is required. All these three examples are centuries old, and not particularly politically sensitive.

[ZeBedie]

Originally Posted by ATNotts

• To ensure the continued open border between UK and Republic of Ireland (probably, politically the most important reason)
• To ensure continued unfettered access to European markets for the many international businesses that have chosen to base themselves in the UK as their country of choice within the EU. Also to ensure the UK financial services industry retains, and can grow it's influence across Europe.
• To ensure all our population has free, unfettered access to working and living throughout the EU
• To ensure our working population retains the protections that would never have been brought in were the UK not pushed, shoved and cajoled into accepting (annual leave, working time etc)
• To enable our fruit and veg farmers, hospitality providers, road hauliers have free access to workers who want to do the work that frankly many Brits who are unemployed don't want to, not can't, do.

That'll do for starters. I'm sure other among the enlightened on this thread can come up with a few more.

Thanks for the reply. I'm yet to be convinced:

The Irish border is a non-issue. The UK government, the EU and the Irish government have all stated that they have no intention of imposing a hard border.

Trade related concerns may be real, but they're manageable and there may be as much upside as downside.

Yes, the right to live and work anywhere in the EU is a useful facility, for those few lucky enough to take advantage. It is of course, more of an inward than an outward flow of labour, due to the English language and the lower wages in many countries. But it was possible to work and live in Europe pre EU, though not so easy as now.

This country lead the world with equal rights for female workers and other 'just' legislation. We can give workers as much protection as society demands, once we've left. We didn't need the EU to tell us to do the right thing in the past and we won't in the future.

If I were a farmer, or any sort of employer, then Poles would be my choice of employee - they're great people, brilliant workers. But it would be better for the UK if our unemployed were encouraged to do the work. Farmers/supermarkets/consumers can afford another 10p on the price of a bag of spuds to encourage our reluctant workers.