UK politics - Hamsterwheel
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And, by one of those "happy and fortunate coincidences " being absent from the UK on the day when the peasantry ( voters if you insist ) react is always useful.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rail-fare-hike
Funnily enough, this is hardly setting a precedent when it comes to the Tories......some will remember the location of a certain Minister when those rather inconvenient issues at Port Talbot surfaced.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rail-fare-hike
Funnily enough, this is hardly setting a precedent when it comes to the Tories......some will remember the location of a certain Minister when those rather inconvenient issues at Port Talbot surfaced.
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
And, by one of those "happy and fortunate coincidences " being absent from the UK on the day when the peasantry ( voters if you insist ) react is always useful.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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The usual moan. Those earning more than the national average in the south-east and having made the most of property prices want the tax-payers in the rest of the country to subsidise their travel costs.
I have, over the decades, watched this cycle repeat several times. Those living the cities look at relative house prices and sell up, moving to the country side for a more rural lifestyle whilst pocketing a large sum of money whilst starting commuting to work. Supply being strained by demand the price of commuting goes up - which triggers vocal complaints about the costs involved.
To put it context, the Times had an article during the last week looking at house prices in the 10 most popular commuting areas around London as more people do as I say above. In Brighton, For example, house value has, on average, increased by about £25-35K.
Meanwhile those who do not commute earn far less and are being priced out of Brighton to other areas along the coast outside range of the London rail line. A syndrome known as “London prices and south coast wages”.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...nham-b7ldmfjpk
....”The Halifax data for 2017 shows that the biggest house price increases in cash terms came in the London boroughs of Richmond upon Thames and Barnet, where rises of nearly 8 per cent translated to an extra £45,463 and £41,697, respectively. The east London borough of Newham had the fastest rising property prices in the capital, up more than 10 per cent to an average of £402,781.
Other top risers included Brighton (11.4 per cent) and Crawley, West Sussex (just over 10 per cent).”.....
I have, over the decades, watched this cycle repeat several times. Those living the cities look at relative house prices and sell up, moving to the country side for a more rural lifestyle whilst pocketing a large sum of money whilst starting commuting to work. Supply being strained by demand the price of commuting goes up - which triggers vocal complaints about the costs involved.
To put it context, the Times had an article during the last week looking at house prices in the 10 most popular commuting areas around London as more people do as I say above. In Brighton, For example, house value has, on average, increased by about £25-35K.
Meanwhile those who do not commute earn far less and are being priced out of Brighton to other areas along the coast outside range of the London rail line. A syndrome known as “London prices and south coast wages”.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...nham-b7ldmfjpk
....”The Halifax data for 2017 shows that the biggest house price increases in cash terms came in the London boroughs of Richmond upon Thames and Barnet, where rises of nearly 8 per cent translated to an extra £45,463 and £41,697, respectively. The east London borough of Newham had the fastest rising property prices in the capital, up more than 10 per cent to an average of £402,781.
Other top risers included Brighton (11.4 per cent) and Crawley, West Sussex (just over 10 per cent).”.....
Last edited by ORAC; 3rd Jan 2018 at 06:21.
Thought police antagonist
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat
I don't get the whole thing - why should people who choose a train-commuting lifestyle expect to be subsidised by those who choose more sustainable lifestyles?
That, and the track record of Graying isn't exactly glowing with success. His bountiful generosity towards the ECML isn't going down too well, but, not a problem as the taxpayers are conveniently available when the private sector runs out of money.
And,when all else fails, what better fall back than the tried and tested "it's all Labour's and ( this bit will set some hearts surging on here ) the unions fault ".
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rail-fare-hike
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-hikes-cartoon
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A letter in today's Times gives the cost of a season ticket between Birmingham and London Euston at £10,567. While this may sound excessive, it works out at £0.22p a mile, a fraction of the cost of going by car before you even begin to factor in parking fees and the congestion charge.
Why should the taxpayer subsidise someone else's lifestyle choice?.
Why should the taxpayer subsidise someone else's lifestyle choice?.
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel
A letter in today's Times gives the cost of a season ticket between Birmingham and London Euston at £10,567. While this may sound excessive, it works out at £0.22p a mile, a fraction of the cost of going by car before you even begin to factor in parking fees and the congestion charge.
Why should the taxpayer subsidise someone else's lifestyle choice?.
Why should the taxpayer subsidise someone else's lifestyle choice?.
A wonderful piece of understatement there then.....£10.5k doesn't merely sound excessive....it is excessive ! It is, and can be I assure you, considerably cheaper to escape from either of the two great Blots on the British landscape.....which is more polite than describing them as ( rude word ) holes.
That, and you have to love that other JB favourite, semantics, this time not with the usual English language but with maths. Quite how the 0.22p per mile is arrived at would be interesting to learn. There's always that inconvenient word "variables " to take into consideration....
Thus a detailed cost breakdown as to how this figure has been calculated would be interesting to read.....over to thee in this respect then.
But, when it comes to subsidising lifestyles, who better to be subsidised than the deserving poor, those whose life would to torn asunder if their meagre sources of income were removed.....
The Four Big Myths of UK Rail Privatisation ? Action For Rail
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I do wonder why so many trains in the UK are "privately" operated by the German state-owned railway.
Just a question really - if the Germans run such an efficient railway that they can even export their expertise, why couldn't/can't we operate our own railway without foreign assistance that takes away a profit?
Just a question really - if the Germans run such an efficient railway that they can even export their expertise, why couldn't/can't we operate our own railway without foreign assistance that takes away a profit?
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel
A letter in today's Times gives the cost of a season ticket between Birmingham and London Euston at £10,567. While this may sound excessive, it works out at £0.22p a mile, a fraction of the cost of going by car before you even begin to factor in parking fees and the congestion charge.
Why should the taxpayer subsidise someone else's lifestyle choice?.
Why should the taxpayer subsidise someone else's lifestyle choice?.
Mick Cash, the general secretary of the RMT Union, on Tuesday led protests against rail fare rises and condemned them as the "Great Train Robbery".
However The Telegraph can disclose that Mr Cash told members of his union last year that increases in fares were “significant” because they would lead to bigger pay rises for rail workers.
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234
Just a question really - if the Germans run such an efficient railway that they can even export their expertise, why couldn't/can't we operate our own railway without foreign assistance that takes away a profit?
Last edited by Curious Pax; 3rd Jan 2018 at 12:10. Reason: Do quote better!
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax
In a word dogma. Cue protestations that publicly owned rail would be managed in the same way as 40 years ago, with all that implies.
Another part being the reverence to privatisation .....at any cost.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...owners-subsidy
http://neweconomics.org/2017/01/railways-failed-next/
So we might as well chuck in energy and utility suppliers to add to the list as well.
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
I'm sure you do understand really GTW, even if like me the commuting life style has never appealed because the price rises come at a rather unfortunate moment in the state of the UK economy.
Nobody, for example, subsidises my lifestyle choice - choosing to spend more on a house so that I can live within cycling distance of work.
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax
In a word dogma. Cue protestations that publicly owned rail would be managed in the same way as 40 years ago, with all that implies.
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
Quite how the 0.22p per mile is arrived at would be interesting to learn. There's always that inconvenient word "variables " to take into consideration....
Thus a detailed cost breakdown as to how this figure has been calculated would be interesting to read.....
Thus a detailed cost breakdown as to how this figure has been calculated would be interesting to read.....
According to a mapping application, the distance is 118 miles (236 miles per day).
I was told (many years ago) that, without holidays, there are 200 working days per year - rule of thumb, maybe . . .
Of course the season ticket allows for additional journeys outside working days, but that isn't mandatory.
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
Quite how the 0.22p per mile is arrived at would be interesting to learn. There's always that inconvenient word "variables " to take into consideration....
The season ticket is £10,567 per annum.
Track miles (rail version thereof) from Birmingham New Street to London Euston is 112 miles (source). The maximum number of working days* per year is 232 (source).
The total miles travelled per year thus 51,968. (232 x (112 x 2)).
Thus cost per year 20.33p/mile assuming all days worked and season ticket not used for any other purpose.
Now that one person has made the claim and two people have verified it, care to answer the question as to why you were so skeptical about the figures in the first place?
Last edited by Charley; 3rd Jan 2018 at 15:08. Reason: * - for a normal, 5-day per week employed position
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Originally Posted by The Nip
In today's paper,
Mick Cash, the general secretary of the RMT Union, on Tuesday led protests against rail fare rises and condemned them as the "Great Train Robbery".
However The Telegraph can disclose that Mr Cash told members of his union last year that increases in fares were “significant” because they would lead to bigger pay rises for rail workers.
Mick Cash, the general secretary of the RMT Union, on Tuesday led protests against rail fare rises and condemned them as the "Great Train Robbery".
However The Telegraph can disclose that Mr Cash told members of his union last year that increases in fares were “significant” because they would lead to bigger pay rises for rail workers.
This was a clear indication that the transport unions were using strikes, not to improve rail conditions, but to destabilise the government.
They don't give a shit about the passengers, any argument to the contrary is lies.
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Originally Posted by Charley
Broadly agree with the mathematics and with G-CPTN's verification.
The season ticket is £10,567 per annum.
Track miles (rail version thereof) from Birmingham New Street to London Euston is 112 miles (source). The maximum number of working days* per year is 232 (source).
The total miles travelled per year thus 51,968. (232 x (112 x 2)).
Thus cost per year 20.33p/mile assuming all days worked and season ticket not used for any other purpose.
Now that one person has made the claim and two people have verified it, care to answer the question as to why you were so skeptical about the figures in the first place?
The season ticket is £10,567 per annum.
Track miles (rail version thereof) from Birmingham New Street to London Euston is 112 miles (source). The maximum number of working days* per year is 232 (source).
The total miles travelled per year thus 51,968. (232 x (112 x 2)).
Thus cost per year 20.33p/mile assuming all days worked and season ticket not used for any other purpose.
Now that one person has made the claim and two people have verified it, care to answer the question as to why you were so skeptical about the figures in the first place?
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man
Assuming that you have a car already then tax and insurance costs can be discounted
We are comparing a season ticket rather than a casual daily journey.
If you want to use a car for commuting, then it's likely that vehicle provision will be a major consideration rather than an incidental.
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Originally Posted by Charley
Broadly agree with the mathematics and with G-CPTN's verification.
The season ticket is £10,567 per annum.
Track miles (rail version thereof) from Birmingham New Street to London Euston is 112 miles (source). The maximum number of working days* per year is 232 (source).
The total miles travelled per year thus 51,968. (232 x (112 x 2)).
Thus cost per year 20.33p/mile assuming all days worked and season ticket not used for any other purpose.
Now that one person has made the claim and two people have verified it, care to answer the question as to why you were so skeptical about the figures in the first place?
The season ticket is £10,567 per annum.
Track miles (rail version thereof) from Birmingham New Street to London Euston is 112 miles (source). The maximum number of working days* per year is 232 (source).
The total miles travelled per year thus 51,968. (232 x (112 x 2)).
Thus cost per year 20.33p/mile assuming all days worked and season ticket not used for any other purpose.
Now that one person has made the claim and two people have verified it, care to answer the question as to why you were so skeptical about the figures in the first place?
First, Siti, bless his RAF blue cotton socks, is one of our more "staunch " right wing contributors and, along with others of the same ilk and former occupation, tends to be somewhat devoid of accuracy as a result.
Plus, the very mention of anything which is anti-Tory and involves trade unions here on JB can be the equivalent of one of those "all you can eat " meal offers.....the faithful duly gorge themselves to over capacity when confronted with such.
It's actually 101 rail miles to Euston and 112 from Moor St to Marylebone ( the latter is far more conducive than bearded rail I should add ) but we won't quibble about a few miles here or there....unless you want to.
So, you've just parted with £10.5k to travel ( assuming you rtn the same day and don't stay in either location overnight, in which case, unless you've got a very generous friend, your costs are going to increase even more ) and for that, you will spend between ( approximately ) 3hrs a day on bearded rail and 4hrs on Chiltern Railways.
If you are starting from B'ham, or the surrounding areas, then you have to get to either Wolverhampton / New Street or Moor St / Snow Hill in the first place...train ? car ?, bus ? telekinesis ?...walk ? cycle ? scrounge a lift ? taxi ? and likewise getting around in London ...all this takes time... and usually.... money.
And what percentage of your salary goes on travel, not just the extortionate amount of the season ticket ?.....and how much productive time will be the result if you spend the time travelling every day, let alone the cost to your health.
The reason I was, and still am, sceptical as to the 0.22p figure is because the amount is very small, a bit too conveniently small in fact when you start taking the other variables into consideration but, thankfully, you provided a simplified mathematical explanation which even those of us with a limited educational attainment ( me for example ) can understand.
Of course, it would also help if various Gov'ts, predominantly Tory but Labour are also, to a lesser extent, culpable hadn't felt it so imperative to splurge the transport budget on London and the South East, rather than say allocate it more broadly across the rest of the UK.
As I was saying about the faithful.....enter good old Mystic ( any predictions for 2018 perchance ? ) Prophead....
" I do not for one minute believe it would run any better under government control though. The worse run areas may be improved but the better ones would probably see a decline"
Alas, when the ECML was put back into public ownership, it, erm, did remarkably well and made a profit.
Then came along the UK's rail saviour, grinning as always, and oops!!, it's now had to be bailed out ( shall we call this a decline ? ) on very favourable terms albeit not yet fully explained of course, by that nice Mr Grayling, currently enduring a warmer than the UK excursion to Quatar.
Last edited by Krystal n chips; 3rd Jan 2018 at 17:48.
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Yup, that's the problem. You cannot have competition on the same tracks with different companies (and hence a pure "free market"). Not enough room. Same with energy, water and communications, you can't change the wires or pipes every time you change supplier. Thus you end up with this "private monopoly regulated by government" farce, usually foreign owned and thus removing wealth from the UK...
Where I live (Southport) Merseyrail to Liverpool / Cheshire is frequent, modern, reliable, cheaper (if you add parking) and faster than the car, so I use it wherever possible. Northern Rail to Manchester is expensive, old fashioned, overcrowded and slow, so I don't. Unless public transport is cheaper than the car what exactly is the point of it???? Other than for rich people who can afford to drive to look down their noses at....
Where I live (Southport) Merseyrail to Liverpool / Cheshire is frequent, modern, reliable, cheaper (if you add parking) and faster than the car, so I use it wherever possible. Northern Rail to Manchester is expensive, old fashioned, overcrowded and slow, so I don't. Unless public transport is cheaper than the car what exactly is the point of it???? Other than for rich people who can afford to drive to look down their noses at....
