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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 13th Sep 2017, 09:31
  #11741 (permalink)  
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You are aware there are/were two pension schemes?

The 2008 scheme you refer to was closed in 2013 during privisation, when the taxpayer assumed responsibility for 46.8 billion of pension provisions.

It is the new private company scheme which is in difficulties, losing 1.3 billion a year and due to move into deficit in 2018. You can understand, in the circumstances, why the taxpayer can assume no responsibility for interfering in it's administration or assuming responsibility for any debts or pension payments?

Royal Mail pre-privatisation retirement fund delivers 8.5bn bill to the taxpayer | City A.M.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 10:57
  #11742 (permalink)  
 
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Knc

Hope your lad, and the rest of the workers, take the correct stance
Please define "correct"
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 11:57
  #11743 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by denachtenmai View Post
Knc


Please define "correct"
Delighted, as always, to render assistance in such complex matters when asked.

Let's start with a rhetorical two part question.

If you worked for an organisation making a profit, but who decided to cut your wages and also impact on your future pension, would you ?

(a ) Say yes, thank you for your disdain as to my fall in living standards and I will be delighted to unequivocally accept this degradation of my terms and conditions.... ( forelock tugging, wringing of cloth cap and credible impression of Uriah Heep being optional extras when doing so )

or...

(b) Hold a legitimate ballot with a view to taking industrial action, of which there are many forms, in order to defend your rights and to protect yourself against the arrogance of a management intent it seems on returning to those halcyon days when workers could be treated as commodities and their welfare simply ignored.

I just wonder, if, as you asked the question for me to clarify "correct" , and to save you any further confusion ( b ) is the correct answer, you ever held a commission in the Engineering or Admin Branches at all ?...if not, by virtue of asking the question, you clearly missed your vocation.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 13th Sep 2017 at 12:19.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 12:10
  #11744 (permalink)  
 
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yellowtriumph: https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._257_Print.pdf
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 13:05
  #11745 (permalink)  
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If you worked for an organisation making a profit, but who decided to cut your wages and also impact on your future pension, would you ?
Pre-tax profits 2016-2017 = 335 Million; 2016-2017 pension contributions = 400 Million; estimated pension contributions 2018 onwards = 1.3 Billion.

Strange concept of making money. As with many such legacy companies which had final salary pension schemes when life expectancy was low and pension investment rates high, they are now pensions schemes with a company attached, slowly leeching the life out of them.

Only two real options - sort out the pension scheme now, or let the company go bankrupt in a few years and through the pensioners into the pension protection fund. good for those already retired - but capped for those still paying in.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 13:08
  #11746 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
If you worked for an organisation making a profit, but who decided to cut your wages and also impact on your future pension, would you ?
I would in practice

(c) look for another job

but I might think differently if I'd ever worked anywhere with a decent pension provision or if I'd chosen to develop a skill set for which there was only one customer.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 15:55
  #11747 (permalink)  
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True, I hadn't considered option (c) directly, given the question was about what I would deem the "correct" action. Of course, perish the thought here, it could be the case that if you run down an organisation, by some happy coincidence, a benevolent buyer will suddenly emerge and purchase the organisation at a knock down price.

Meanwhile, gone but not forgotten it seems.

Given his butchering abilities as Chancellor, under the guise of " austerity", it's no surprise to read George expanding on his wishes to involve the soon to be " services no longer required " temporary leader.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...st-theresa-may
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 17:53
  #11748 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting article

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/...ampaign=buffer

not sure anyone of those yummy mummy's is ever going to get a year in the pokey for such online hate.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 18:02
  #11749 (permalink)  
 
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Having lived through the abuses of British unions of the 60s and 70s I had no great respect for them as institutions but did gradually come to realize that it was the self serving and corrupt union leaders of the time that was the problem not the institutions themselves.
Later in life during a period of living in the US I came to see at first hand just how tough things can be for employees without adequate representation. The balance has to be found where union representatives genuinely have the best interests of the workforce in mind.. and that doesn't mean using them as a weapon in an attempt to bring down an elected government.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 19:51
  #11750 (permalink)  
 
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Prophead: So, "the company is free to pay whatever they seem fit". Even after both sides have signed a contract stating you will work x hours for y pounds per annum? If the company decides they would rather pay less well, how about the other side of the coin; what if the employee decides I can't be bothered with 40 hours per week, I shall now work 30 hours instead? Good for the goose etc? By the way, the idea that one can just "get another job" doesn't work any more. I suppose there could be other jobs available but only if you are prepared to work for next to nothing, take up a zero hours contract etc.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 20:31
  #11751 (permalink)  
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The idea that one can just "get another job" doesn't work any more.
In my case, employment has meant re-locating (sometimes with my family).
When I first did my apprenticeship (on Tyneside), it was possible for 'the working man' to leave one job on the Friday and start down the road on the Monday, but with the demise of Engineering on Tyneside that soon became no longer possible.
I moved 300 miles away for my first long-term job (17 years), but by then it was only possible to find similar work by re-locating (in one case overseas - then back to the UK - and then further by at least 200 miles each time after that).
Distances beyond daily commuting possibility.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 21:20
  #11752 (permalink)  
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The idea that one can just "get another job" doesn't work any more.
With an unemployment rate of around 4%, which with the residual number who are either unemployable or don't want jobs, is as close to zero as you can get, this is the easiest time to get a job for the last 45 years....
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 00:40
  #11753 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MungoP View Post
Having lived through the abuses of British unions of the 60s and 70s I had no great respect for them as institutions but did gradually come to realize that it was the self serving and corrupt union leaders of the time that was the problem not the institutions themselves.
Later in life during a period of living in the US I came to see at first hand just how tough things can be for employees without adequate representation. The balance has to be found where union representatives genuinely have the best interests of the workforce in mind.. and that doesn't mean using them as a weapon in an attempt to bring down an elected government.
Has there ever been a time when unions have the best interests of the workforce in mind rather than their own wellbeing?.

What I suspect you are looking for are workers Councils in each factory like the one implemented at Webcor where a council consisting of five elected employees and three appointed managers to pursue ways to improve work rules, wages, and benefits. However, in the US at least, these are deemed illegal and banned to protect the main unions.


unions
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 08:38
  #11754 (permalink)  
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For those unfamiliar with the world, the real world that is, not the JB world, of work, here's a useful insight.

True, the article is 10 months old but despite ORAC's perplexing analysis as to how jobs are now freely available, as Kelvin D has said, getting the right sort of job is nowhere near as easy as some on here are nave enough to believe.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ous-employment
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 11:19
  #11755 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
What I suspect you are looking for are workers Councils in each factory like the one implemented at Webcor where a council consisting of five elected employees and three appointed managers to pursue ways to improve work rules, wages, and benefits. However, in the US at least, these are deemed illegal and banned to protect the main unions.
In my council there was a working party consisting of union reps, HR, management and councillors whose job was to pick up and sort out any issues where the workers and the management couldn't agree.

We'd meet once a quarter and listen to reports about how workers and management were getting on absolutely fine with sorting out whatever the issues of the day were and really didn't need us councillors butting in.

Worked perfectly, I thought.
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 14:02
  #11756 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
The real world in your mind being somewhere in the 1970's.

The gig economy is coming, the traditional route of working 9 - 5 for one employer is on the way out and many many people will be very happy with that.

It's all well and good the retired complaining that there are no 'jobs for life' anymore but how many of those actually enjoy going to work at the same place doing the same commute and the same job over and over for decades. It creates transport hell twice a day, doesn't work very well around schooltimes and I would suggest is bad for your mental health.

People are looking at alternatives and the companies that the socialists at the Guardian love to hate are being progressive in creating opportunities for people to get away from the 9-5 drudgery.

Amazon now have an app where you can register as a delivery driver and whenever you have a few hours spare you can log in, get a consignment that you pick up from you nearest warehouse and deliver around your local area. You can earn 12 per hour doing whatever hours you choose whenever you choose. I believe Uber works in a similar way and where Amazon leads others follow and this is the future.

Now, the unions sending the postal workers out on strike will only serve to speed up the spread of the above and that is a good thing. Soon, if you want to be a delivery driver you will get a van and register with a bunch of logistics companies then work the hours you choose. No doubt there will still be a bunch of shop stewards stood outside the old depots protesting.

This will be the same for a whole host of industries whether it be nurses or pilots and those trying to stop it are similar in my mind to those that tried to keep the workhouses open.

The only problem with the above is it is very reliant on supply and demand and I still have not had an honest response as to why, those who are so concerned about workers rights and pay are the same people that want unlimited immigration into the country.
Well, actually, it's like this.

First, I've always lived and worked a contemporary life.

Second, where have you ever seen me support the " jobs for life" mantra because other than in the R.A.F for example, where al you have to do is say "yes" and you can be assured of a lifetime wasted, then they are relatively few and far between. Indeed, there is an expectation amongst employers you will provide a diverse range of positions and organisations when applying for a role.

Your touching faith in the gig economy is wonderfully nave to say the least. Please explain how, say, new rolling stock can be built at home, on a computer. As for Amazon ( we'll leave aside their little matter of tax here ) if you really think they are going to allow anybody with an app, and this applies to every distribution company, to simply pop round, pick up a parcel or two, then go home again....think again.

Distribution works on a bulk principle. And please feel free to expand on your knowledge of courier driving.....this may prove a revelation.

One point I agree on however, is the one about repetition. This was relevant before I retired and the obstacle to change ?......a small PCS enclave consisting of former S.N.C.O's, all devout Tory / UKIP voters, but all for using the union to negate any form of progress in terms of working diversity. Of course, the 2.5 hrs a day planned breaks, some managed to make this 3, out of an 8hr day may also have played a part in their reticence.

Now, the new hero of the moment....one J.R.-M....showing his caring compassionate Tory side and complete lack of understanding as to the social reality for many.....he'd make a good contributor on here in that respect.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: Food banks 'rather uplifting' - BBC News

https://www.theguardian.com/business...rpays-couriers

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 14th Sep 2017 at 14:17.
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 14:33
  #11757 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
In my council there was a working party consisting of union reps, HR, management and councillors whose job was to pick up and sort out any issues where the workers and the management couldn't agree.

We'd meet once a quarter and listen to reports about how workers and management were getting on absolutely fine with sorting out whatever the issues of the day were and really didn't need us councillors butting in.

Worked perfectly, I thought.
Still no representation for the workforce though. What Webcor was doing was having actual employees on the Governing Council.
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 15:06
  #11758 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect that J R-M rather fancies himself as the 21st century equivalent of Alan Clark. Although in many respects he falls far short of that erstwhile cad, failing to entertain to any extent to the same level.

Last edited by Effluent Man; 14th Sep 2017 at 15:17.
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 15:15
  #11759 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
With an unemployment rate of around 4%, which with the residual number who are either unemployable or don't want jobs, is as close to zero as you can get, this is the easiest time to get a job for the last 45 years....
Some are unemployable though...



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Old 14th Sep 2017, 16:58
  #11760 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
Where did I say anything of the sort? Designed maybe, in fact i have done just that.

It's about the people working for themselves and choosing on a project by project basis who they work for and where possible, when. These people have their own pensions, healthcare etc. and the system works well as good people attract the best money. This already happens in the engineering and construction sector as lots of people are contract workers and wouldn't have it any other way.



And now you are showing your ignorance. This isn't one of my 'mystic meg' moments, this is actually happening right now and other companies are going to follow suit. Why do you think Amazon packages get delivered in the evenings and weekends?

https://flex.amazon.co.uk/

And others are following

https://beacourier.co.uk/

Many of the products Amazon sells have also been created by people working for themselves based wherever they choose doing the hours they choose. Have a look at Amazon Merch or Amazon Custom etc. Whaere Amazon leads others will follow. It is coming whether you like it or not.
Love it ! even Central office couldn't have produced such gushing faux sentiment for being a contractor.

Being a contractor is hard work actually ( done it for while to save you asking ) and I'll admit there are people who enjoy contracting as a working lifestyle. However, there are more than a few downsides, even, well maybe not, you would agree.

I like the bit about "showing my ignorance ".....alas, may I suggest you review the published T's and C's from the first link and then, read this glowing tribute about the second...

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...to-the-courier

The second in particular has featured prominently in other media outlets for precisely the reasons mentioned.

Saw a job the other week in fact, you'll probably wholeheartedly endorse this, delivering cars ( not trade plates ) usual blurb "suit semi / retired persons, smart appearance ( this lets me out ) must have Ltd co status" then came the rub " must have sufficient funds to pay for fuel, Senior Railcard / bus pass an advantage for return, reimbursed two weeks later "

Wonderful ! you pay all the costs upfront, they save as you have the cards for reduced travel, and, should they go broke, you are left out of pocket !.bet they were overwhelmed with that one, likewise another paying 7.50 -7.51 ph !.....yay, a 1p rise !

Oh, and when you've designed said parts and components, whose going to assemble them in your utopian ( union free of course ) gig economy ?
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