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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 6th Jul 2017, 03:46
  #11061 (permalink)  
 
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Could one of the political scientist types please explain how a Marxist can be given the support of the Trade Unions ?
I remember when the EETPU went to court to expel any card carrying communists in the EETPU . The main reasoning was that it was a conflict of interest for anyone who holds those views to be involved in a institution that is legal in our democracy .But where the communists (Stalinist regimes and Maoist Marxists regimes) lived in those days trade unions were banned and trade unionists were jailed or sent to forced labour camps to die.
No unions allowed at that time in any of the workers paradise's around the world . So why would any Union now be supporting a declared Marxist like the present leader of the party that is supposed to represent the working class of the UK ?
Do they really think the world needs another failed Marxist State ?
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 05:23
  #11062 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fitliker View Post
Could one of the political scientist types please explain how a Marxist can be given the support of the Trade Unions ?
I remember when the EETPU went to court to expel any card carrying communists in the EETPU . The main reasoning was that it was a conflict of interest for anyone who holds those views to be involved in a institution that is legal in our democracy .But where the communists (Stalinist regimes and Maoist Marxists regimes) lived in those days trade unions were banned and trade unionists were jailed or sent to forced labour camps to die.
No unions allowed at that time in any of the workers paradise's around the world . So why would any Union now be supporting a declared Marxist like the present leader of the party that is supposed to represent the working class of the UK ?
Do they really think the world needs another failed Marxist State ?
That's a reasonable question.

Unfortunately, you won't get a reasonable answer, at least not on here.

You have to remember, that, the terms Maoist / Marxist / Leninist / Trot are epithets invariably used by many on JB, almost as an auto-reflex, when trade unions are mentioned, because, just like their preferred source of facts ( the Mail ) all trade union members are automatically whichever term comes to their minds ( closed ) first.

Guardian readers, anybody with a social conscience, including Lib-Dems, also attract the same epithets by default.

No doubt some of the BOFSAT's will duly offer their answers to your questions however, all in complete harmony of course, as to why it's patently obvious trade unions et al, should be termed thus.

However, there may well be a slight operational delay here due.....the frothing and slavering has to be prioritised after all..to this article which may well take prominence.

Tony Blair 'not straight' with UK over Iraq, says Chilcot - BBC News

A classic "Sir Humphrey " understatement really, albeit I was one of the millions opposed to the Iraq war given that prior to this, Blair was doing a good job as PM in many respects, which wasn't difficult in comparison to the deposed junta he took over from.

Another perennial on here, JB has a surfeit of misanthropes in this respect, is that of women and their status, in society.

True, there are a few token gestures towards the 21st century, but, in the main, women don't usually get mentioned other than as being sexual objects ( and poor drivers ) so it's no surprise to read, that, having already been subjected to an arbitrary change in pension entitlement, who else but a " caring" Tory Gov't should now come up with the wizard idea of getting prospective female pensioners to begin an apprenticeship ! .....sadly, we no longer have any real heavy industry or coal mines, so these routes are closed, but, hey ! ho ! in this service sector orientated country, there will surely be numerous opportunities ( even more so when we get rid of all those damned inconvenient immigrants what ! ) for women to progress in life....if you call working until you die progress, and many of you do and will, of course.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...pprenticeships
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 07:53
  #11063 (permalink)  
 
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Remember when the Left howled about this poster?



`I think I'm a pretty straight sort of guy'.

It now emerges that he is about as straight as Harry Lauders walking stick

Tony Blair was not "straight with the nation" about his decisions in the run up to the Iraq War, the chairman of the inquiry into the war has told the BBC.
Speaking for the first time since publishing his report a year ago, Sir John Chilcot discussed why he thinks the former PM made those decisions.
He said the evidence Mr Blair gave the inquiry was "emotionally truthful" but he relied on beliefs rather than facts.
Tony Blair 'not straight' with UK over Iraq, says Chilcot - BBC News
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 07:56
  #11064 (permalink)  
 
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The expected ramblings without answering the question and riddled with stereotypes!!

I liked this bit:
Blair was doing a good job as PM in many respects, which wasn't difficult in comparison to the deposed junta he took over from.
Look up 'junta'! Blair took over from a democratic party that was falling apart because it was democratic and there were too many internal squabbles. Blair replaced this with a regime of tight 'discipline' and control. Remember all the Labour MPs being issued with pagers so that they could be brought into line 'efficiently'? A joke going at the time, Q: What is the difference between a Labour MP and a supermarket trolley? A: A supermarket trolley has a mind of its own! I remember listening to Tony Benn, one of the few too strong and principled (easy to disagree with him, but he did stick to his guns) to fall in line with Blair's diktats telling how he was frequently tearing up and binning 'press releases' faxed to him from Labour Party HQ saying how "Mr Benn supports Mr Blair's latest so-and-so initiative". We were a lot closer to a dictatorship in the Blair days than many think and if the term 'junta' is to be used it should be for the Bliar-Broon Junta.

However, Britain fortunately escaped from that one. And fortunately back to democracy. If one wants to see control-freakery in Britain these days one only needs to look at the hard-left control that there is going on in Labour. If one wants to see a good example of that just look at how some of the more centrist Labour MPs, Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper and the like, are now towing the Corbynista line. Those who don't will be purged, or de-selected I think the modern term is, by the Corbyn-McDonnell Junta-in-waiting. And the Guardian will be drooling over how marvellous they are at doing so! (Funny old thing, but I constantly see the Daily Mail criticised here but I can't remember when I last saw it quoted! That thought-control medium, the Guardian, is far, far too frequently quoted: some form of 'subliminal messaging'?!)

Back to fitliker's question. The Party is assumed to be everything in the Marxist/Leninist State style of thinking. Any union activity is performed within The Party. Unions trying to run in competition or opposition to The Party will get exactly the same treatment as any other political dissenters. Opposition to The Party is not permitted in such a state.

is futile!

KnC, a grammar tip: a 'space' should not be used immediately inside brackets (it's just not correct to do so!) nor should it be used either side of a stroke, there's no either/or about it, it's just not correct!

(Why, oh why, are so many stuck in this old-fashioned way of thinking that without the 'heavy industries' of coal, steel and ship-building there is no industry? People do not travel by ship any more, they fly. That is why ship-building has gone into decline but that is also why aeroplane building has been on the rise. Every Airbus that you fly on is held up there by wings made in Britain! Stop thinking in the past, look to the future!!)
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 08:20
  #11065 (permalink)  
 
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That's a reasonable question.

Unfortunately, you won't get a reasonable answer, at least not on here.
Well you certainly went on to prove yourself right there.

The fact that the Labour party are not being cast aside due to Blair is solely down to the fact that they have gone so far to the left. It is now obvious that the reason Corbyn was allowed to take over and take the party in that direction was to save Labour from the legacy of Blair.

If the people that swear never to vote Tory because of Thatcher thought the same way about Blair then the party would be finished. As it is they have someone who was very publicly opposed to the war and now seems to be gaining strength on the back of the far left policies.

This could all end in disaster if these rabble rousers are allowed the keys to the money box however and hopefully it won't get that far.

As to the unions, well have a look at the Venezuela website linked to earlier. You will see lots of support from UK unions.

Viva Venezuela! Magazine ? Venezuela Solidarity Campaign

Funnily enough we don't hear much from Corbyn and McDonnell about Venezuela these days.
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 08:21
  #11066 (permalink)  
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[QUOTE=Trossie;9822226]The expected ramblings without answering the question and riddled with stereotypes!!

Which, not unexpectedly, you have duly exemplified below...

I liked this bit:Look up 'junta'! Blair took over from a democratic party that was falling apart because it was democratic and there were too many internal squabbles. Blair replaced this with a regime of tight 'discipline' and control. Remember all the Labour MPs being issued with pagers so that they could be brought into line 'efficiently'? A joke going at the time, Q: What is the difference between a Labour MP and a supermarket trolley? A: A supermarket trolley has a mind of its own! I remember listening to Tony Benn, one of the few too strong and principled (easy to disagree with him, but he did stick to his guns) to fall in line with Blair's diktats telling how he was frequently tearing up and binning 'press releases' faxed to him from Labour Party HQ saying how "Mr Benn supports Mr Blair's latest so-and-so initiative". We were a lot closer to a dictatorship in the Blair days than many think and if the term 'junta' is to be used it should be for the Bliar-Broon Junta.

However, Britain fortunately escaped from that one. And fortunately back to democracy. If one wants to see control-freakery in Britain these days one only needs to look at the hard-left control that there is going on in Labour. If one wants to see a good example of that just look at how some of the more centrist Labour MPs, Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper and the like, are now towing the Corbynista line. Those who don't will be purged, or de-selected I think the modern term is, by the Corbyn-McDonnell Junta-in-waiting. And the Guardian will be drooling over how marvellous they are at doing so! (Funny old thing, but I constantly see the Daily Mail criticised here but I can't remember when I last saw it quoted! That thought-control medium, the Guardian, is far, far too frequently quoted: some form of 'subliminal messaging'?!)

I see the inclusion of links from the Guardian as being one of the joys of life for those less fortunate than myself in their restricted thought processes.



Back to fitliker's question. The Party is assumed to be everything in the Marxist/Leninist State style of thinking. Any union activity is performed within The Party. Unions trying to run in competition or opposition to The Party will get exactly the same treatment as any other political dissenters. Opposition to The Party is not permitted in such a state.

is futile!


Now why does that remind me of (a) the military and (b) JB


K n C a grammar tip: a 'space' should not be used immediately inside brackets (it's just not correct to do so!) nor should it be used either side of a stroke, there's no either/or about it, it's just not correct!

Thanks.....here's another tip......I don't actually give a rats toss about the spelling and grammar police.




(Why, oh why, are so many stuck in this old-fashioned way of thinking that without the 'heavy industries' of coal, steel and ship-building there is no industry? People do not travel by ship any more, they fly. That is why ship-building has gone into decline but that is also why aeroplane building has been on the rise. Every Airbus that you fly on is held up there by wings made in Britain! Stop thinking in the past, look to the future!!)[/

Not for the first, and not for the last, a total sense of humour failure it seems......just a shade too dry for you ?


QUOTE]
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 08:30
  #11067 (permalink)  
 
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.....here's another tip......I don't actually give a rats toss about the spelling and grammar police.
Well, if you can't be bothered to spell, punctuate correctly and use good grammar I can't be bothered to read what you post.
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 09:34
  #11068 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fitliker View Post
Could one of the political scientist types please explain how a Marxist can be given the support of the Trade Unions ?
I remember when the EETPU went to court to expel any card carrying communists in the EETPU . The main reasoning was that it was a conflict of interest for anyone who holds those views to be involved in a institution that is legal in our democracy .But where the communists (Stalinist regimes and Maoist Marxists regimes) lived in those days trade unions were banned and trade unionists were jailed or sent to forced labour camps to die.
No unions allowed at that time in any of the workers paradise's around the world . So why would any Union now be supporting a declared Marxist like the present leader of the party that is supposed to represent the working class of the UK ?
Do they really think the world needs another failed Marxist State ?
Without doubt the massive irony and complete indication of the desperate needs of the Left is that in the run up to the election Jeremy was seen as so toxic even his own party candidates could not bring themselves to endorse him or even mention him yet apparently now he is the second coming.

There was almost total radio silence in here and all over social media when the subject of Labour was being raised, the mere mention of Corbyn had the usual suspects hanging their heads in abject shame. My sister in law, one of the most vocal and loyal Labour fan ducked for cover at the mere mention of Jeremy, Di and John.

I always suspected the Money Tree was going to be very tempting but I must admit to giggling at the clear and understandable knowledge of how shallow and easily swayed some of the supposedly principled folk are, my BiL and SiL being points in case.
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 09:44
  #11069 (permalink)  
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" There was almost total radio silence in here and all over social media when the subject of Labour was being raised, the mere mention of Corbyn had the usual suspects hanging their heads in abject shame. My sister in law, one of the most vocal and loyal Labour fan ducked for cover at the mere mention of Jeremy, Di and John.

I always suspected the Money Tree was going to be very tempting but I must admit to giggling at the clear and understandable knowledge of how shallow and easily swayed some of the supposedly principled folk are, my BiL and SiL being points in case


No there wasn't, certainly not on here, although many on here were busy engaging in the political equivalent of premature ejaculation at the thought of the vast Tory majority to come, so they probably missed these posts ( either that, or there were no spelling or grammar or punctuation errors worthy of their castigation ) anyway.

Would this be a good time to mention the political lifespan of the no longer quite so blessed Mother Theresa and "U" turns, various ?
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 09:45
  #11070 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie
Q: What is the difference between a Labour MP and a supermarket trolley? A: A supermarket trolley has a mind of its own!
Do you really think that blind obedience is limited to Labour? It's how all the Parties work. It's why the Whips are there.

The Labour Party hadn't been invented when W S Gilbert wrote
"I always voted at my party's call
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all."
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 11:15
  #11071 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
Funnily enough we don't hear much from Corbyn and McDonnell about Venezuela these days.
Maduros Marxist thugs have attacked and seriously injured a number of opposition politicians in the Venezuelan parliament. No criticism of this assault on democracy from Labour or its leaders.

Viva la revolucion!
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 12:15
  #11072 (permalink)  
 
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A number of erstwhile vociferous supporters are not so er, vociferous, any more. Web sites adjusted etc. Even the poisonous Owen Someone (am I the only one who would never tire of slapping his mush?) has gone quiet over it, or shouts fake news.

CG
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 13:15
  #11073 (permalink)  
 
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its just so funny to watch. One minute he is universally disliked and pretty much the whole of the Labour Party and the Labour fan base are out for his blood, he plants a money tree and now he is the 2nd Coming.

Either the whole of the Labour supporting electorate got mugged by the Money Tree or it was simply a case of anyone but the Tory's, what ever the price.
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 13:27
  #11074 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
its just so funny to watch. One minute he is universally disliked and pretty much the whole of the Labour Party and the Labour fan base are out for his blood, he plants a money tree and now he is the 2nd Coming.
There does seem to be a distinct lack of principle in the Labour Party these days - wave a fake fiver and they all come running..
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 13:40
  #11075 (permalink)  
 
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Sallyann, I fully agree with you. But the point here is a matter of scale. Labour in the late-'90s under Bliar took this control-freakery to a pinnacle, hence that joke that was doing the rounds then.

Ahhh... H.M.S. Pinafore!

About Corbyn and the Labour Party: All those screeching U-turners in the moderate ranks of Labour are hailing his praises because they are so well aware of the forthcoming purges ('de-selections' in new-speak) that would lose them their cushy MP jobs. Public arse-creeping is the only option left for them. Degrading maybe, but think of all that MPs' pay! Principles? Nah! Those died out from the Labour Party with Tony Benn, Tam Dalyell, Gerald Kaufman and the likes.

About apprenticeships: how dare anyone say that a '64-year old' should not be able to do an apprenticeship? That is utterly and disgustingly ageist!!


About grammar: The Stoic philosophers felt that you could not convey your thoughts properly if you did not use accurate language. The Stoics had a big influence on Roman thinking, hence Latin being such a precise language. Every bit of grammar is there for a reason. Using it sloppily is a good indication of a sloppy mind. Go ahead, show yourself up if you want to do so!
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 13:53
  #11076 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post

About grammar: The Stoic philosophers felt that you could not convey your thoughts properly if you did not use accurate language. The Stoics had a big influence on Roman thinking, hence Latin being such a precise language. Every bit of grammar is there for a reason. Using it sloppily is a good indication of a sloppy mind. Go ahead, show yourself up if you want to do so!
I approve of good grammar, but forensically criticising posters' grammar simply stifles debate and dissuades people from taking part. Do you believe that was the Stoics' point? Accurate language and good grammar are not exclusive.

CG
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 15:01
  #11077 (permalink)  
 
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Stop taking away my fun! I don't think that my comments on grammar will be stifling any debate! The Stoics were rather 'harsh' with their thoughts/ways.

A valid topic under 'UK Politics' could easily be the appalling standards of teaching our own language under successive governments over many decades.

(I wonder if those many 'screeching U-turners' in Labour will now be looking at grammatical trivia to point out that their past criticism of Corbyn wasn't really criticism if you look at some of the sloppy grammar that they had used at the time!!)
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 15:09
  #11078 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
Stop taking away my fun! I don't think that my comments on grammar will be stifling any debate! The Stoics were rather 'harsh' with their thoughts/ways.
I'd rather die than become a Fun Policeman! Carry on!

On:

the appalling standards of teaching our own language under successive governments
I wish I could show you the standards of English among the children in my care whilst working. I took lots of hits as a Head for refusing faddy methodology, but I'll always stand by it.
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 17:22
  #11079 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...pport-refugees

George Clooney has backed Germany’s open-door policy towards refugees fleeing the Syrian conflict after meeting Chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin.
George Clooney's Twins ? Moving Back to LA for Security Reasons! - Life & Style

Life & Style has exclusively learned that George Clooney has recently made plans to move back to LA, for the safety of his family, after the latest spate of terror attacks in England.

“He doesn’t feel like Amal and the twins are safe living in the English countryside,” an insider says. “He’s determined to move his family to LA, where he feels much more secure.”
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Old 6th Jul 2017, 18:10
  #11080 (permalink)  
 
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Clooney is an idiot.

Borrowed from another thread:
Just to put things into context:

In the UK the total number of people per 100,000 of the population killed on the roads is 2.9, the total number of people per 100,000 of the population killed by firearms is 0.23, the total number of people per 100,000 of the population killed in terrorist incidents (in a bad year) is 0.046. For all of those added together the total per 100,000 of the population is 3.176.

In the US the total number of people per 100,000 of the population killed by firearms is 10.54.
(And LA is probably quite a bit above the US average for those firearm deaths.)

He and his family would be far, far, far safer living in Britain.
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