Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 1st Jul 2017, 12:32
  #10821 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 62
Posts: 1,945
Originally Posted by Jetex_Jim View Post
I stated this position to illustrate the premise that not all who dislike Conservatives are lentil knitting socialists who have no knowledge of the real world.

However, if you'd like to debate one of the reasons why I can't abide said Conservatives how about this?


And without recourse to name calling, Straw man arguments or other obfuscation please.
During the election campaign if any one mentioned Jeremy and his his terrorist IRA friends the argument was immediately shut down by the Left demanding that we all see that friendship as some kind of progressive healing of the rifts by St Jeremy, somehow his insightful wiseness being instrumental and necessary as part of the peace process.

Now if I suggested to you that the only way to bring about meaningful change with regards to the DUP mindset was by entering the kind of alliance they are entering into with the Tory's i suspect the reaction might not to agree with me.

Jeremy's terrorist links are acceptable but the Tory's aren't?
Seldomfitforpurpose is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 12:42
  #10822 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,116
Depends what you consider austerity. UK public expenditure in 2016-17 was just 0.02% lower than in 2007-8.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1497954069

Compare that to what happened in the Irish Republic, Greece and elsewhere after the banking crisis. A freeze in spending certainly, but austerity? And when compared to the "Keynesian" model, the UK economy has been performing better than almost the whole of the EU.

http://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publi...rywp201315.pdf
ORAC is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 12:44
  #10823 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 853
To call the 1 billion given to NI by the Tory government as "the magic money tree" is laughable.

It is a tiny fraction of the amounts promised to the gullible by the wholly dishonest Labour Party at the general election.

If you take just one promise by Labour to not only end tuition fees but to cancel current debts that comes, by some estimates, to 48 billion. That is without the ongoing costs associated with that fairy tale!

The Dianne Abbott school of economics requires a magic money forrest!
vctenderness is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 13:09
  #10824 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 6,000
VCtenderness

You are missing the point ! What an incompetent potential government put forward as their spending plans is one thing
This is different
This is a minority government basically buying support from a minority party using tax payers money for self interest
The fact that the government are supposed to be impartial in their dealings in Northern Ireland which is a fragile and sensitive situation makes a formal tie up even more disgusting
Pace is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 13:23
  #10825 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: England
Posts: 247
Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
Money earned by hard work, enterprise and endevour is real money. Money created by chopping down trees and printing it is not real money.
Therefore, the term "magic money tree" is perfectly valid, and those who dismiss it are fantasists, hiding in a forest of economic illiteracy.
So what was quantitative easing then which has been implemented by the Bank of England for a number of years ???
Nevertheless, I completely agree with the real money point.
Buster15 is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 13:33
  #10826 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 67
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
So what was quantitative easing then which has been implemented by the Bank of England for a number of years ???
Nevertheless, I completely agree with the real money point.
One of the main problems with QE is that it can be used to prop up asset prices, and so allow borrowing against them. It then goes horribly wrong if that asset is sold, and the sale price is a lot lower than expected.

Any distortion to a free market seems to tend to make it less stable, and large distortions seem to create greater instability. This happens in many different ways, milk being a reasonable example. Years ago, we had a system whereby farmers sold milk for a guaranteed price to the Milk Marketing Board. This isolated dairy farmers from the vagaries of the market, so they could make long term investments, secure in the knowledge that they would generate the income to cover them. When we had to remove that system, and replace it with a different, and more volatile, one, dairy farmers soon found themselves in serious trouble.

The problem was, arguably, caused by the interference in the market caused by the way the MMB worked. Had dairy farmers been exposed to the real market variability all those years ago then they would have adapted (as they are doing now, to some degree) and there wouldn't have been a major problem.
VP959 is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 14:18
  #10827 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 68
Posts: 902
Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
So what was quantitative easing then which has been implemented by the Bank of England for a number of years ???
You might want to remind yourself of the government and its policies that led to the events requiring the bank to begin such action?
sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 14:24
  #10828 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: On the beach with a cerveza.
Posts: 1,135
Originally Posted by Pace View Post

The fact that the government are supposed to be impartial in their dealings in Northern Ireland which is a fragile and sensitive situation makes a formal tie up even more disgusting

How is it not impartial? - if Sinn Fein go back into power sharing then they get a say on where this extra money is spent. If they dont then the NI Department in Westminster does.
Jet II is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 16:16
  #10829 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 72
Posts: 739
You might want to remind yourself of the government and its policies that led to the events requiring the bank to begin such action
The answer seems to me to be the policy of bailing out greedy robbers otherwise known as "banks". The government provided 1,162Billion to bail out these thieves. The alternative would have been to allow them all to collapse and ruin Mr & Mrs Average.
Government borrowing was running around 30 to 40 Billion up to 2008. Following the huge amounts ladled out to the banks, this shot up to over 145Billion by 2010. So, isn't it about time people stopped blaming Labour for the chaos & misery caused by the bloody banks?
KelvinD is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 16:19
  #10830 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 67
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
The answer seems to me to be the policy of bailing out greedy robbers otherwise known as "banks". The government provided 1,162Billion to bail out these thieves. The alternative would have been to allow them all to collapse and ruin Mr & Mrs Average.
Government borrowing was running around 30 to 40 Billion up to 2008. Following the huge amounts ladled out to the banks, this shot up to over 145Billion by 2010. So, isn't it about time people stopped blaming Labour for the chaos & misery caused by the bloody banks?
Perhaps worth looking at why the banks managed to get into such a dire position. One significant contributory factor was that the government of the day failed to adequately regulate the finance sector, so allowing the banks to dream up ever more risky ways of generating revenue.
VP959 is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 16:46
  #10831 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 54
Posts: 907
Originally Posted by Pace View Post
The fact that the government are supposed to be impartial in their dealings in Northern Ireland which is a fragile and sensitive situation makes a formal tie up even more disgusting
The money is going to Northern Ireland, not into the pockets of the DUP.

Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
So, isn't it about time people stopped blaming Labour for the chaos & misery caused by the bloody banks?
So who was regulating them? Whose watch did it happen under? (Edit to add - I'm not suggesting for a moment the crisis wouldn't have happened under the Conservatives).
Andy_S is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 17:39
  #10832 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
The money is going to Northern Ireland, not into the pockets of the DUP.



So who was regulating them? Whose watch did it happen under? (Edit to add - I'm not suggesting for a moment the crisis wouldn't have happened under the Conservatives).
Successive Tory governments deregulated the banks. All Labour did was to fail to bring regulation back.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 17:43
  #10833 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 67
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Successive Tory governments deregulated the banks. All Labour did was to fail to bring regulation back.
True, but Labour governments had 10 years to introduce regulation, and they failed to do so.
VP959 is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 17:57
  #10834 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 936
Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
What you have just described might just explain the chips on KnC's shoulders!!! (His 'military career' does seem to hark back to days of yore.)
Thank you for that kind mention in despatches . If you want "days of yore" a scan through the Mil.forum will offer you numerous selections, all from those who still yearn for such and, like any long term military, are so indoctrinated they cannot comprehend reality as a civilian.

On both that forum, and on JB, the military are sacrosanct and indeed, many of the posts and posters on here display a paradigm of military life.

The military are invariably to the right politically, despite the occasional gripe about Tory politics, allied to never really questioning politics, or political influences on society because, whilst they may live ( or, as one priceless contributor put it " embedded with civilians"....not much, if any, hope there then ) in a civilian home and location, they are not affected by the vagaries of life in terms of job security, finances. health provision and, if they live far enough away, get paid "Home to Duty" allowances.

The culture however, remains as immature, duplicitous and vindictive as it always was.

Just like the Tories, the military have created the illusion of "caring". True, on the surface this exists, however, it's a wafer thin veneer to appease public perception. Underneath, nothing has changed. The same levels of bullying, dereliction of duty, " management" incompetence are still prominent as is that other tried and tested trait, self-aggrandizement ( very prominent on here in fact ) and, as always, they don't take kindly to free-thinkers or criticism ( ego's in particular ) or alternative views and facts.

The biggest illusion is something called the Service Complaints Procedure, so robust, that when the evidence is overwhelming against the individual, and when they actually admit to activities that, in the civilian world would warrant dismissal, nothing happens to them. But, that's the Admin and Engineering Branches for you, always a safe haven for those lacking any form of rudimentary ability other than promoting the essential "image" of professionalism to the public. Again, a lot like the Tory manifestos not unsurprisingly.

That said, yet another perennial favourite ( on JB ) appears , notably, "it's all Labours fault " with regard to the economy. As urban myths go, this is akin to the Loch Ness monster.....sadly, as with the monster, factual reality isn't going to influence the Tory faithful thinking, well on here anyway, so this link will be duly dismissed as being irrelevant and, " more lentil eating loony left" propaganda....

Can Labour be blamed for the economic crisis? | Economics Help

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 1st Jul 2017 at 18:21.
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 18:20
  #10835 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 72
Posts: 739
It's all very well saying this government or that failed to regulate the banks but how does that account for the failure and corrupt lending practices in the US? Remember, it was dubious lending and selling on of valueless debts that caused the whole thing to become unwrapped. And no government here in the UK was going to regulate that behaviour. And the point remains; it is bloody silly to blame the Labour government for the economic implosion that hit the world in the last decade.
KelvinD is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 18:23
  #10836 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
True, but Labour governments had 10 years to introduce regulation, and they failed to do so.
You can't surely blame any administration for failing to undo the legislation of a previous one. Can you imagine the Daily Mail headlines that would have accompanied any reversal. No Government is going to do anything that might deliberately harm the country's economy....oh hang on...
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 19:23
  #10837 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: On the beach with a cerveza.
Posts: 1,135
Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Successive Tory governments deregulated the banks. All Labour did was to fail to bring regulation back.
Nonsense - Labour introduced a completely new Regulation System that totally collapsed on its first test.

Trying to blame other people for Labour's misdeeds is rather silly.
Jet II is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 20:45
  #10838 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: England
Posts: 247
Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
Nonsense - Labour introduced a completely new Regulation System that totally collapsed on its first test.

Trying to blame other people for Labour's misdeeds is rather silly.
What is actually silly is this infantile it is the fault of X or Y. When you get major global economic crisis, quite frankly any government of a country like the UK can at best be reactive to events.
We all know that our economy is based on personal debt and the debt is bigger now than then. All that is keeping us going are record low interest rates. A good example are new car sales the vast majority being lease type. This is resulting in people driving 40k cars for 300 a month. How can that be sustainable.
Buster15 is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 20:57
  #10839 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Southport
Posts: 1,084
It would just be nice if some politician turned up who thought of the good of the country as a whole and took a long term view, instead of never looking beyond the next election and only thinking of their own self - interest or the interests of whoever was backing them with money.
Sadly it's never going to happen.
andytug is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2017, 20:58
  #10840 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,116
I sold mine several years ago - paid for my new kitchen. Forget the price of the car, the increasing complexity and cost of the safety measures and electronics make just insuring it impossible on my income. I am a member of a car club and have used it twice in 5 years, the advantages of moving into the centre of a thriving town.

With housing costs and mobility costs I think work mobility is retreating back to the 1930s, let alone the 1970s.
ORAC is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.