Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 28th Jun 2017, 10:30
  #10761 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,061
Problem with FPTP is that you will be stuck with the same two parties for centuries to come (unless Macron crosses the Channel) which leaves little room for progress, new ideas, different approaches, and anything else than black or white politics.

I prefer coalitions as it means that no left- or right-wing approach is taken, but usually some middle of the road solution which, in general, is acceptable to a fairly large part of the electorate and not prone to a 180 reversal after a change of goverment.

I also prefer a mixture of MPs elected directly in constituencies and and MPs voted through a list. It makes sure that not only court jesters, loudmouths and serial huggers are elected just because they are able to charm or entertain the constituents, but also experts and lateral entrants to the political circus.
virginblue is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 11:08
  #10762 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 68
Posts: 910
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
What about Thatcher? Probably the most right wing government in my life time, and she managed to give a thoroughly good kicking to all those on low incomes that we are still feeling today. Her reign (and it was a reign - the bloody woman seemed to think she was the monarch) from May 1979 to November 1990, irrevocably damaged the hopes of many ordinary people, creating an environment where employers could return to employment policies from 200 years ago. Even after she was forced out, Major continued with her general policy strategy for the next year or two, only gradually shifting a bit before the 1997 General Election.

The closest we've had to a centrist government was arguably Blair's.



There ought to be the equivalent of a "Godwins Law" for those who bring up Thatcher at every turn. They are like the forty a day, Capstan Full Strength smoker, who blames the surgeon for cutting out half his lungs.

Meanwhile, the Labour Luminary (three watt fridge bulb version) are strangely silent about the roaring "success" of the Great Venezuelan Socialist experiment. Corbyn, Jones et al were praising it to the rooftops not that long ago.
But the slates are now off the roof, and the poor are getting drenched. That is Labours model for the UK economy, but the glue they are planning to use just isn't up to it.



A Corbyn worshipping friend has recently moved into her 1,000,000, recently renovated farmhouse here without ensuring that her oven and hob was working and has been living on take-away pizzas for a few days. Socialist planning, eh!
My wife has made some chilli and will shortly take some to her for lunch. I have printed out a "Humanitarian Aid" poster to put on it.
sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 11:15
  #10763 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 393
The closest we've had to a centrist government was arguably Blair's.
Bliar's government wasn't 'centrist', it was Bliarist.
Trossie is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 12:04
  #10764 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,188
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
What about Thatcher? Probably the most right wing government in my life time, and she managed to give a thoroughly good kicking to all those on low incomes that we are still feeling today. Her reign (and it was a reign - the bloody woman seemed to think she was the monarch) from May 1979 to November 1990, irrevocably damaged the hopes of many ordinary people, creating an environment where employers could return to employment policies from 200 years ago. Even after she was forced out, Major continued with her general policy strategy for the next year or two, only gradually shifting a bit before the 1997 General Election.

The closest we've had to a centrist government was arguably Blair's.
Thatcher was simply a reaction to the Governments that went before with their (failed) left-wing policies - it was a return to the centre.

The economic and employment reforms were needed and this was agreed across the spectrum - how many have been reversed?
Jet II is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 12:30
  #10765 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: England
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
Bliar's government wasn't 'centrist', it was Bliarist.
Well it was a centrist government which won 3 elections in a row. You only have to read the literature to see that new labour was a means of occupying the centre ground. Blairist may be a name but it was very much a centre party and a very successful one at that (setting aside the Iraq issue).
Buster15 is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 15:23
  #10766 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 393
It didn't have policies other than "What can keep Bliar in power". You can hardly call that 'centrist'!!
Trossie is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 15:44
  #10767 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 67
Posts: 378
Perhaps the terms right, left and centre have lost their meaning. My simplistic view is that Tony Blair attracted a lot of votes from the centre right, by moving Labour away from the hard left days that caused their long spell out of government.

Whether that makes both the Blair and Brown governments "centrist" is debatable, but they certainly weren't as far to the left in their policies as the current Labour party seem to be, neither were they as far to the right as the current government.
VP959 is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 15:53
  #10768 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 54
Posts: 911
Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
It didn't have policies other than "What can keep Bliar in power". You can hardly call that 'centrist'!!
I think they did have policies, but as you say policy was shaped with a view to remaining in power. So traditional Labour ideology went out of the window, which in some ways wasn’t a bad thing. They were very successful in electoral terms. Their real problem, the one thing that arguably prevented the Blair led governments from being entirely successful, was the dysfunctional and increasingly toxic relationship between Blair and Brown.

Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Perhaps the terms right, left and centre have lost their meaning.
I think it depends where you see the centre as being. If you think (as some people did) that Ed Miliband was a pragmatic centrist, then Corbyn looks like a moderate Left Winger and the Tories would appear far right. It's all a matter of personal perspective.
Andy_S is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 16:36
  #10769 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Godforsakencountry
Posts: 268
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
What about Thatcher? Probably the most right wing government in my life time, and she managed to give a thoroughly good kicking to all those on low incomes that we are still feeling today. Her reign (and it was a reign - the bloody woman seemed to think she was the monarch) from May 1979 to November 1990, irrevocably damaged the hopes of many ordinary people, creating an environment where employers could return to employment policies from 200 years ago. Even after she was forced out, Major continued with her general policy strategy for the next year or two, only gradually shifting a bit before the 1997 General Election.
Actually Margaret Thatcher was responsible for the largest creation of real wealth ever seen for the working classes than any previous or post governments of any ilk. Namely, the policy of allowing working class people to buy their own council houses at considerably less than market prices.
Argonautical is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 18:04
  #10770 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 68
Posts: 0
But that is a bit like handing out lottery tickets isn't it? Some scoop the jackpot whilst the many get nothing. Had they made houses available to anybody in need then it would have been a policy I could have supported.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 18:14
  #10771 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: England
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
But that is a bit like handing out lottery tickets isn't it? Some scoop the jackpot whilst the many get nothing. Had they made houses available to anybody in need then it would have been a policy I could have supported.
I fully agree with your point about the sale of council housing. She came into power when our economy was on the floor and did much to modernise industrial relations. However, like many others her latter years were very divisive. Sounds familiar?
Buster15 is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 18:15
  #10772 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 67
Posts: 378
The legacy of selling off council housing is still with us. There was very little new build replacement rented accommodation, so as the more affluent council house tenants were able to buy their homes and move up the property ladder, there was a reduced number of affordable rented homes.

In the longer term this policy almost certainly did more harm than good to those who were on such a low income that buying a house was out of the question.
VP959 is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 18:48
  #10773 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 68
Posts: 0
But it was first and foremost an electoral strategy for turning working class Labour voters into Tories. As such the effect that it had on the supply of affordable houses was irrelevant to the Thatcherites.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 20:16
  #10774 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Permanent Newbie
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The legacy of selling off council housing is still with us. There was very little new build replacement rented accommodation, so as the more affluent council house tenants were able to buy their homes and move up the property ladder, there was a reduced number of affordable rented homes.

In the longer term this policy almost certainly did more harm than good to those who were on such a low income that buying a house was out of the question.
The later downside of this was that people buying houses with big discounts, all of a sudden they were rich because mortgage wasn't much and all those nice banks and credit card agencies offering all those easy loans.
New car......... yup
Nice Holiday..............yup
New kitchen and the latest stuff...............yup
Rollover credit when maximised...........yup

Bought more than a few propertys off these people after 2007 when credit became squeezed, beliving they entitled to a life style their income could not sustain.

They sold just before repoed and went to council to house.................. but councils had no property.
racedo is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 20:35
  #10775 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4,818
.................. but councils had no property
They could have used the money they received from the sales to build more social housing.
Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 20:39
  #10776 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,435
Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
They could have used the money they received from the sales to build more social housing.
No they couldn't, much as many of them wanted to, because it was illegal.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 21:08
  #10777 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 68
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
No they couldn't, much as many of them wanted to, because it was illegal.
And in any case what they were sold for would barely buy a piece of land to build a replacement house on.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 21:34
  #10778 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 62
Posts: 1,941
An interesting stat would be how much councils actually saved in labour and materials costs by selling off some their stock in the right to buy scheme.
Seldomfitforpurpose is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2017, 22:35
  #10779 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,435
Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
An interesting stat would be how much councils actually saved in labour and materials costs by selling off some their stock in the right to buy scheme.
Overall, social housing is subsidised (although a lot less than it used to be), in that the stock is rented out for less than the open market value. The repairs service (whether in house or subcontracted) is part of that, as is the administration: a social landlord has costs just as any other landlord has.

But this is all opportunity cost not real money, so never actually materialises in a form that could be spent.

Not forgetting, of course, the ring-fence between the general fund and the housing revenue account which stops you moving money around anyway, even if it is actual cash.

You can tell I'm slightly floundering here - housing finance is immensely complicated and incomprehensible, so despite reading hundreds of pages of documentation and attending various training sessions and briefings I'm not actually anywhere near understanding it. I don't think it's one of those areas which is deliberately over-complicated by officers, so that councillors never understand it, so that councillors never try to interfere (eg actually making decisions and stuff), but I could be wrong.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2017, 04:15
  #10780 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 945
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-turns-cartoon

Ah, yes, another policy statement suitably flushed with success.
Krystal n chips is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.