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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 16th Jun 2017, 13:50
  #10661 (permalink)  
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Planemike.

Reading the letter from the Coroner to the department, top of page 3 in the link below, it was the Coroner's recommendation that the department write to the providers of high rise social accommodation to encourage them to fit sprinklers. The letter sent by the department did excactly that and included the letter below as an enclosure. It would seem that the department did exactly what the Coroner asked.


https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/def...8March2013.pdf
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 13:54
  #10662 (permalink)  
 
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Did Corbyn bring along his new Kensington MP, Emma Coad, to explain why she did nothing about the problems when she was a director of KCTO?
Hmmm... that one could develop along interesting lines if true.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 13:59
  #10663 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
Hmmm... that one could develop along interesting lines if true.

From Wiki..

Dent Coad was born in Chelsea as the youngest of six in an Anglo-Spanish family, and has lived in North Kensington since 1986.[2] She was elected to Kensington and Chelsea London Borough Council in 2006, representing Golborne ward.[3] She is a member of the London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority[4] and was a council-appointed board member of Kensington and Chelsea TMO from 2008[5] to 31 October 2012.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Dent_Coad
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 14:05
  #10664 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Planemike.

Reading the letter from the Coroner to the department, top of page 3 in the link below, it was the Coroner's recommendation that the department write to the providers of high rise social accommodation to encourage them to fit sprinklers. The letter sent by the department did excactly that and included the letter below as an enclosure. It would seem that the department did exactly what the Coroner asked.

https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/def...8March2013.pdf
What you say is quite true but take a look, it also deals with the risk of spread of an external fire. Seems like a missed opportunity. I know, easy to say in hindsight but there were highly paid people around who read this stuff or should have done and done something about it. No one can say this came out of nowhere. Now if it were a major earthquake in Kensington, they might be on safe ground!! Excuse the pun !!!

Would also add the residents of Grenfell Tower were uneasy about safety and did raise legitimate concerns. These appear to have been brushed aside by "authority". Response was: ""Go away!! We know best, don't worry your pretty little heads".

Last edited by Planemike; 16th Jun 2017 at 14:24.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 14:19
  #10665 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Planemike.

Reading the letter from the Coroner to the department, top of page 3 in the link below, it was the Coroner's recommendation that the department write to the providers of high rise social accommodation to encourage them to fit sprinklers. The letter sent by the department did excactly that and included the letter below as an enclosure. It would seem that the department did exactly what the Coroner asked.


https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/def...8March2013.pdf
From many of the witness accounts from those escaping from Grenfell Tower, fire doesn't seem to have been a major problem inside the building, but smoke and fumes were. Would sprinklers have made any difference? At least one fire expert interviewed yesterday said that in his view sprinklers would have had little or no effect on the outcome. That's not to say that sprinklers aren't a damned good thing to fit, but what would have been far greater benefit would have been better fire escape routes, better fire advice to residents and a better smoke extraction system from the central well.

In terms of sprinklers, the fire experts seem to be converging on a view that external wall cascade sprinklers could have possibly suppressed this fire fairly quickly.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 14:24
  #10666 (permalink)  
 
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Question to those who know this stuff: would sprinklers have a smoke suppressing effect at all?

CG
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 14:27
  #10667 (permalink)  
 
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More disgusting behaviour from Corbynistas...

Prominent Corbynistas have been peddling false claims this afternoon that the government has issued a D-Notice preventing the reporting of the death toll from Grenfell. The lie was reported by the prominent Corbynista site Skwawkbox, which claimed “multiple sources told the Skwawkbox that the government has placed a ‘D-notice’ on the real number of deaths in the blaze”. The ‘story’ was also promoted by two other viral Corbynista sites Evolve Politics and Novara Media.
A spokesman for the Defence and Security Media Advisory Committee, the body which issues D-Notices, told Guido this afternoon:
“The Secretary of the Defence and Security Media Advisory Committee has not issued any D-Notice in relation to Grenfell.”
These Corbynistas, who work closely with Jeremy Corbyn’s office, are lying to their readers. They are deliberately peddling knowingly false conspiracies to suggest some government plot about Grenfell, and getting thousands of hits off the back of it.
https://order-order.com/2017/06/16/c...ice-fake-news/

Waiting for Corbyn to denounce the vermin promoting that lie...


...and waiting!
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 14:29
  #10668 (permalink)  
 
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Of course, we rely on PPRuNe so are well and correctly informed.....!!!

Just as matter of interest is it generally known when D notices are issued as matter of course?

Last edited by Planemike; 16th Jun 2017 at 15:03.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 15:17
  #10669 (permalink)  
 
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Khan obviously didn't reckon that a seven year old kid would notice the London emperors new clothes and heckled him. Footage of Mays visit shows very little security presence, save for what a prime minister would normally command.
She did not need it. Unlike Khan und Corbyn, she ducked the public and only met with fire fighters and police - which even the Daily Mail of all papers found irritating.

Did Corbyn bring along his new Kensington MP, Emma Coad, to explain why she did nothing about the problems when she was a director of KCTO?
Hmmm... that one could develop along interesting lines if true.
There is also this nice youtube clip with BoJo making rounds which seems to be more damaging to the other side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUEiXJAYVGs
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 15:19
  #10670 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
Question to those who know this stuff: would sprinklers have a smoke suppressing effect at all?

CG
I looked at this when we built our house, as there was a recommendation from the fire officer to fit sprinklers. Being on a private water supply, conventional sprinklers weren't practical, as they would have needed an autostart generator to power the pump if the power failed. I found several companies that supply high pressure, low water volume, mist fire suppression systems, that can be run from a small pressurised tank of water, with no mains power required.

The interesting thing was that these high pressure mist systems were both more effective at suppressing typical household fires (cooking-related, soft furnishing fires, etc) than conventional "rain fall" type sprinklers, plus they had the added advantage of suppressing smoke pretty well. The very fine water droplets apparently stick to smoke particles well, and wash them out of the air.

Neither sprinkler system will deal with fumes, but it seems that mist sprinklers may work to improve visibility, by reducing smoke levels. That alone might have been enough to allow more to escape from the recent fire.

Cost was probably a major concern, though. A mist sprinkler system for our modest 1500sq ft home would have been a little over £6,000.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 15:24
  #10671 (permalink)  
 
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Just as a matter of interest did you have it fitted?
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 16:08
  #10672 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by virginblue View Post
There is also this nice youtube clip with BoJo making rounds which seems to be more damaging to the other side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUEiXJAYVGs
Seen this before and I'm not understanding the relevance - was there an issue with the number of firefighters or time they took to get there? I haven't heard this claimed anywhere

Johnson has stated that during Khan's time he has reviewed fire coverage for this borough and not recommended any changes.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 16:15
  #10673 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post

"that no one has single idea as to the cause of just yet." Just not true.
Really? As in REALLY? What started it then?

The Senior Fire Officer publicly announced this morning that the cause of the fire will remain unpublished until the investigation is concluded but perhaps you know better, if so perhaps you could share that information with us.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 16:15
  #10674 (permalink)  
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For interest here is a procurement strategy paper for a similar project signed off by Islington Council this January.

Main reason for the cladding is that funding can be obtained from the government by means of Carbon Offset Funding. Lots of discussion of how much it will save each tenant in heating bills; the insulation efficiency of expanded polystyrene; the environmental impact of the gasses emitted if it burns and hence why it has to be protected by cladding.

But not a word about the risk of fire and prevention measures......

https://democracy.islington.gov.uk/d...ary%202017.pdf
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 16:19
  #10675 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
Just as a matter of interest did you have it fitted?
No, I decided to fit a better fire alarm system than required instead, mainly because of the cost. I weighed up the risk reduction versus the cost and decided that for a house with two people in it, a good alarm and easy ways to escape in the event of fire was better value than a mist fire suppression system.

I hope I've made the right decision.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 16:25
  #10676 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
Really? As in REALLY? What started it then?

The Senior Fire Officer publicly announced this morning that the cause of the fire will remain unpublished until the investigation is concluded but perhaps you know better, if so perhaps you could share that information with us.
What we also know is that the fire started inside a flat on the fourth floor and that the police have said that they are not treating it as suspicious at this time.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 16:25
  #10677 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
Really? As in REALLY? What started it then?

The Senior Fire Officer publicly announced this morning that the cause of the fire will remain unpublished until the investigation is concluded but perhaps you know better, if so perhaps you could share that information with us.

Have a read of this, not written by me....
I doubt that the thin polyethylene core of the aluminium composite cladding was a major fuel source. My own theory (and I stress that it is only a personal theory) is that the most likely scenario was this:

- A fire broke out in a flat on the fourth floor for some reason (an appliance fault has been suggested)

- The fire spread to a nearby window, perhaps setting fire to curtains or blinds, and then the PVC window surrounds and cill started to burn.

- at this point the window failed, or perhaps had been left open, or perhaps the fire came out of the newly fitted window extractor fan.

- The fire then was directed upwards, burning through whatever fire stop was supposed to be above every building opening, and was funneled up the ventilation cavity, behind the rain screen.

- This chimney effect would have intensified the flames, a bit like a blowtorch, and the increased temperature in the ventilation cavity started to break down the thick PIR foam insulation, releasing flammable gasses.

- These then fuelled the fire further, with the temperature increasing to the point where the aluminium composite rain screen panels started to burn.

- At this point the temperatures on the outside of the building would have been extremely high, aluminium burns at a very high temperature (it was the fuel in the Shuttle SRBs), and from that point on the external fire was probably too hot, and spreading too fast, to be extinguished by any ground-based fire appliance.

- The fire spread into flats when the intense heat from outside shattered the windows, setting those flats on fire and so releasing smoke and fumes into the central escape route core of the building. This may have been exacerbated if the doors to any flats failed to close after the occupants left the lower floors.

The above is just informed guesswork, based on the limited information and evidence that is largely scattered around in the public domain, and not an expert opinion by any stretch. .
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 16:26
  #10678 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
For interest here is a procurement strategy paper for a similar project signed off by Islington Council this January.

Main reason for the cladding is that funding can be obtained from the government by means of Carbon Offset Funding. Lots of discussion of how much it will save each tenant in heating bills; the insulation efficiency of expanded polystyrene; the environmental impact of the gasses emitted if it burns and hence why it has to be protected by cladding.

But not a word about the risk of fire and prevention measures......

https://democracy.islington.gov.uk/d...ary%202017.pdf
I do hope they are not using expanded polystyrene (EPS), as it is a lot more flammable than the PIR foam used on Grenfell Tower, and would create an even greater external fire risk.
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 16:31
  #10679 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
No, I decided to fit a better fire alarm system than required instead, mainly because of the cost. I weighed up the risk reduction versus the cost and decided that for a house with two people in it, a good alarm and easy ways to escape in the event of fire was better value than a mist fire suppression system.

I hope I've made the right decision.

I would have done the same as you...... As a non-smoker and non user of a chip pan I reckon my chances of getting out of two storey building are pretty reasonable., nothing is certain in this life!! If I lived on the 10th floor, I would certainly feel differently...
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Old 16th Jun 2017, 16:38
  #10680 (permalink)  
 
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The Senior Fire Officer has stated the cause of the fire will not be published until the investigation is complete.

In the mean time anything you think you 'know' is nowt but supposition.
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