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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:15
  #9561 (permalink)  
 
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Is that voting list published?
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:57
  #9562 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Is that voting list published?
I do not know the answer to that. If you look at the electorial commission website you will see that the 'marked register' (the register of people who turned up and voted) does appear to be available to view. Given that the open register of people registered to vote is also publicly available then given some effort I imagine it would be easy to collate the two pieces of information - of course the open register is not the list of all registered voters, but if you think about it those people can be easily filtered out if you have the marked list. But I am absolutely not an expert in these matters. The ONS also seems to have some interesting data.

I suppose you have to ask yourself why would this information be secret? Why would not the figures be publicly available as they are not specific to any individual? The end result would be either be factual or statistical - but not the result of any 'polling'.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 11:15
  #9563 (permalink)  
 
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The voting system in the UK is supposedly run in such a way as to render the voting intention of individuals a secret. Nothing could be further from the truth. A voter register number is recorded on each voting slip, so it would be possible to reconstruct a list of not only who voted, but how they voted.

It could be done, but the effort involved makes it unlikely that it would ever be used to track individual political affiliations.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 11:21
  #9564 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
As somewhere in the region of 50% of those who go to Uni never earn the 21k per annum required to pay back any of their tuition fees this barking plan just means more a more kids are going to take the 3 years on the piss option to "study" Underwater Basketweaving.

A 3 year party to get a useless degree that enables you to earn burger flipper wages and us tax payers foot the bill, utter madness.
I find it grossly offensive that you consider my Thames Valley University M.A. degree in 14th century secular basketweaving useless.

Others have a more considered opinion.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 11:41
  #9565 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
How many of us grumpy old men that are posting here are/were pilots?

I remember a trainer retiring on his final salary pension when I was a copilot in the early nineties, even then he would be receiving around 60k in RETIREMENT.

Yet 27 years later this post reveals the reality for most people, an admission that most graduates, the higher earners, would struggle to make even 21k that triggers the paying back of loans.

How bad is your own situation really?

Amber Rudd, Theresa May and many of the others on the conservative front bench are millionaires. I would suggest that they, as many posters here, have not the ability to put themselves in the shoes of those less fortunate than themselves. 'I bloody well managed, so why can't they?' Seems to be the underlying mantra.

I would suggest being thankful for our own situation, and less judgmental of others, would bring more joy into our lives.
Nothing judgemental in my post at all but it would seem the point being made has been missed.

12 years ago my son had a Uni offer but made the sensible decision that an english/sports degree was probably not going to get him anywhere so applied for an apprenticeship with a major utility provider and 12 years on is an area manager earning over 40k.

My point is that if half of those going to Uni are never going to attain an employment level earning 21k should they have ever gone to Uni in the first place?

Now Labour plan to throw a massive bunch of money at kids so they can go to Uni for free where there is nothing to suggest that the attainment level will actually change.

If they had grasped the nettle and suggested free Uni for Maths/Science/Engineering that would have been a common sense approach to filling the skills gaps in those industries but is allowing someone to go and study the life and times of Darth Vader or Spaghetti Knitting in the 1800's really a wise way to spend tax payers money?

The only winners in this one are the Uni's themselves who must be almost at that 'pass the tissue' moment at the thought of those unlimited billions of tax payer 's coming there way.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 12:07
  #9566 (permalink)  
 
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Nothing judgemental in my post at all but it would seem the point being made has been missed.
I mostly agree with, or far least feel there is something of value in your latest post. Whether your previous one was judgemental, I'll leave it to others.

The point I was making was that we all seem very capable of looking at and judging other people's perceived failures with nary a backward glance at our own, maybe if we honestly look for reasons why others don't achieve, we might be more forgiving.

If we did so, and found our situation to be such that we require help, I am suggesting that one party, for all it's failings, would be the one that we should vote for. (In fact I favour the Green Party in England, but not on this occasion.)

The current Tories simply don't represent the type of people or thinking that I believe will move us (all) in a positive direction. Greed is at their heart, and I just don't agree with it.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 12:44
  #9567 (permalink)  
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The British Election Study

http://www.besis.org/
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 12:53
  #9568 (permalink)  
 
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In the politest possible terms I was not suggesting that the 50% or so who go to Uni and then do not achieve a job paying the 21k need trigger loan payments were failures, I was simply suggesting that 3 years 'studying' for a degree that was almost certainly not going to take them anywhere was IMHO not time well spent.

The idea now that Labour is simply going to throw a massive bag of money at the feet of kids to enable even more to go to Uni and not reach that target, and there is nothing to suggest otherwise is a barking mad approach and certainly not a sensible way to spend billions of tax payers money.

As regards looking back I joined the RAF in 1974 as a mechanic, went of to be an aircraft fitter before remastering to NCO Aircrew and finally leaving in 2012 as Master Aircrew.

I have never seen the fact that I was not clever enough to be a pilot, a job I would have loved to have been able to do as any kind of failure, I see it as a simple matter of fact that I lacked the skill sets and effective intelligence to have mastered that role.

Perhaps that mindset is why I don't see the Tory's in the way you do and certainly cannot subscribe to the Labour Politics of Envy mantra.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 13:18
  #9569 (permalink)  
 
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The point I was making was that we all seem very capable of looking at and judging other people's perceived failures with nary a backward glance at our own, maybe if we honestly look for reasons why others don't achieve, we might be more forgiving.
In the politest possible terms I was not suggesting that the 50% or so who go to Uni and then do not achieve a job paying the 21k need trigger loan payments were failures, I was simply suggesting that 3 years 'studying' for a degree that was almost certainly not going to take them anywhere was IMHO not time well spent.
Equally, I was not suggesting that you were, my statement stands alone. You seem to have made assumptions.

Perhaps that mindset is why I don't see the Tory's in the way you do and certainly cannot subscribe to the Labour Politics of Envy mantra.
Perhaps.

Perhaps it's simply tribal. You perceive yourself as one of the 'winners', just as most Tories do. I know this, as many, probably the majority of my own friends are in this category. And that's ok, they're still my friends.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 13:26
  #9570 (permalink)  
 
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The whole University thing is a gigantic scam by all Parties to try and cover up the total lack of meaningful jobs for the majority.
Likewise the stupid notion that all kids should stay on in formal education until they are 18.
It has bugger all to do with becoming a better educated, highly skilled, Nation and everything to do with keeping hundreds of thousands of the young out of the Welfare system.
In the broader scheme of things you can either have a large population and minimal technology or high levels of technology and a small population. You can't have what we have now which is high levels of both.
When I retire I am going to work full time (unpaid!) for the Charity I currently spend a day a week with. The percentage of actual homeless we see, and help, is in single figures. The overwhelming majority are people who have jobs but cannot afford the utility bills and food. And no, most do not have big TVs and smoke 40 a day. We are one charity in one city and we see between 500 and 600 people a week through the door. We liaise with other city based charities and they have similar numbers.
A colleague recently returned from a fact finding visit to 2 towns in the Northwest of England and the word used was 'overwhelmed' when looking at demand versus supply for services. We are also seeing a huge increase in mental health issues.
We are getting further and further up Sh!t Creek and I genuinely fear for the future of our kids and grand kids. There are no easy solutions and all Governments seem to be able to do is throw sticking plasters at gaping wounds.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 13:32
  #9571 (permalink)  
 
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University

Firstly I never went to uni. No problem with that. My old fashioned impression was that Uni was going to produce the clever people required to be doctors, astronauts, surgeons and others who expansive education is a requirement.

Recently I have required a joiner and a decorator. I wanted a skilled person who would do a professional job. I found one and he is excellent and above all honest. He charges 150 per day for his Labour. The decorator I found charges 200 per day, but that included some paint etc. My gardener charges 15 per hour. All 3 did not finish school.

I asked if they had ever had a young person who wanted to learn the trade etc. All of them said the same. The young like the wages but don't want to work hard and long hours to attain a reputation to then charge top money for a good job.

My point being, only so many will use university to enrich themselves both financially and educationally. You don't have to have O Levels etc to make a living. Where would we be if the dustbin men go on strike? (No insult meant) There are millions of people who make a good living by finding their own level and not being suckered into thinking uni is the be all.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 13:44
  #9572 (permalink)  
 
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If they had grasped the nettle and suggested free Uni for Maths/Science/Engineering that would have been a common sense approach to filling the skills gaps in those industries but is allowing someone to go and study the life and times of Darth Vader or Spaghetti Knitting in the 1800's really a wise way to spend tax payers money?
More than that, the 'Changing Your Shit Further Ed College Into A University Act' should be amended to require all universities to have and maintain Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Biology and Engineering degree courses as a condition of existence. End of.

CG
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 13:49
  #9573 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
More than that, the 'Changing Your Shit Further Ed College Into A University Act' should be amended to require all universities to have and maintain Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Biology and Engineering degree courses as a condition of existence. End of.

CG
Wot 'e said
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 13:54
  #9574 (permalink)  
 
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More than that, the 'Changing Your Shit Further Ed College Into A University Act' should be amended to require all universities to have and maintain Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Biology and Engineering degree courses as a condition of existence. End of.
Talk about the pendulum swinging too far! I couldn't disagree more.

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Old 1st Jun 2017, 14:07
  #9575 (permalink)  
 
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Talk about the pendulum swinging too far! I couldn't disagree more.
Your perogative. My view was not prompted by a 20 minute vid, but formed by 30 years in state education.

CG
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 14:13
  #9576 (permalink)  
 
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Am I the only one who thinks Mrs May is screwing this up for the Tories? The woman is completely devoid of substance.

CG

Last edited by charliegolf; 1st Jun 2017 at 18:45. Reason: Speeling
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 14:14
  #9577 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
Your perogative. My view was not prompted by a 20 minute vid, but formed by 30 years in state education.
Did you mean: prerogative?
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 14:18
  #9578 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
Did you mean: prerogative?
Yes I did. The point of your emboldened text is?

CG
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 14:20
  #9579 (permalink)  
 
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My view was not prompted by a 20 minute vid,
My guess is that Sir Ken Robinson's wasn't either.

but formed by 30 years in state education
Did you eventually get some O'levels?
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 15:57
  #9580 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not at all convinced that a large proportion of young people should go to university, either. I spent a lot of time interviewing for graduate recruits when I was working, and it was often a pretty soul-destroying experience. We would sift candidates for interview based largely on their paper qualifications, only to find that a large proportion of them were barely literate, let alone able to think coherently.

On the other hand, we have seemingly forgotten all about the need to have a pool of people who have good practical skills. Finding a decent, skilled, tradesperson is getting increasingly hard, with many just having bits of paper saying they are "qualified" but who turn out to only have rudimentary practical skills.

When I left school I was lucky, in that my chosen employer paid for me to do a degree as a sandwich course. It was damned hard work, fitting in study and a job, and the pay was rubbish. At the time, a friend of mine signed up as a joiner's apprentice, and was even worse off than me. Four years later, my joiner friend was earning around double my pay, was well on his way to becoming a master joiner, and really enjoyed his work.

We recently had a lot of work done on a house, and not a single person we employed had served an apprenticeship. The majority had sort of picked things up as they'd gone along, together with doing short courses at a technical college. It showed in terms of some of their workmanship, sadly.

We need a broad mix of people, some with academic qualifications, some with practical qualifications, and need to recognise that learning practical skills in the workplace is just as valuable as learning in university or college.
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