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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 6th May 2017, 13:49
  #8861 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
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A very unfortunate headline

Corbyn - 'We have five weeks to ruin their party': Live updates

as Corbyn is without doubt going to ruin his own party over the next 5 weeks.
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Old 6th May 2017, 14:05
  #8862 (permalink)  
 
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Dear Labour party - an open letter from a non-supporter:
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Old 6th May 2017, 14:36
  #8863 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Ahem.....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ill-be-ditched

For those on here convinced the Guardian is the font of all evil, not forgetting the priceless offering of practicing mind control, here's another offering, or two, or three if you can actually be bothered to read the links...which most of you won't....as to the dangers the UK faces if there is no robust opposition to what has all the potential to become one of the most destructive regimes, even by Tory standards, the UK has ever been forced to endure.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...resent-warning
The problem for the left is they are currently incapable of presenting a realistic, coherent and believable set of policies that will attract the 'don't knows' in the marginal constituencies. The main reason for that I suspect is the ideologies of Momentum or Militant Tendency or CPGB, whichever term they answer to today. The party have and continue to let their core supporters down very badly.
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Old 6th May 2017, 15:25
  #8864 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
The main reason for that I suspect is the ideologies of Momentum or Militant Tendency or CPGB, whichever term they answer to today.
I believe they answer to "The Labour Party" today.
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Old 6th May 2017, 15:52
  #8865 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I believe they answer to "The Labour Party" today.
I'm not convinced they do. There seem to be deep rifts within the Labour party that don't seem likely to be resolved any time soon. The fact that the leader and his cohort have strong support from an extreme left membership, doesn't mean the whole party agrees with that position. It seems to me that there are still a lot of moderate, centre left, Labour candidates standing in the coming election. It will be interesting to see how those moderates fare compared to their left wing colleagues.
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Old 6th May 2017, 16:58
  #8866 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
That is exactly how Labour got in (under Bliar) in '97 and then managed to do so for the next couple of elections. When substance came to bite ("There is no money left"), they lost.

When all that is ever quoted by certain posters is the Guardian, that is quite a level of evidence of some form of mind control!

Stop trying to confuse the issue by asking for facts!

Nope. Country needed a fundamental change in 1997, even the Tory MPs I know agree that Democracy is best served by changes of Government. None every want to be in a situation where they or aybody else are the sole party of Government.

UK had 5 years of Major relying on Ian Paisley for support because of rebels within his own party.
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Old 6th May 2017, 20:23
  #8867 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
It seems to me that there are still a lot of moderate, centre left, Labour candidates standing in the coming election.
And this is because, one pissed-off Labourite was telling me on polling day[#], the GE was called without leaving enough time for the planned deselections.


[#] It is commonplace for tellers of opposing parties to chat about all sorts of things when there aren't any voters around, and it's not uncommon to learn things you wouldn't otherwise have heard.
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Old 6th May 2017, 20:26
  #8868 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
And this is because, one pissed-off Labourite was telling me on polling day[#], the GE was called without leaving enough time for the planned deselections.
Mrs May getting her tactics spot on
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Old 6th May 2017, 21:10
  #8869 (permalink)  
 
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the GE was called without leaving enough time for the planned deselections.
https://youtu.be/z4uivPpzCGo
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Old 6th May 2017, 22:19
  #8870 (permalink)  
 
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Tax the rich

General election 2017: Labour rules out tax rises for 95% of earners - BBC News

somethings never change.
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Old 6th May 2017, 22:37
  #8871 (permalink)  
 
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(apologies for aviation content)
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Old 7th May 2017, 06:00
  #8872 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Gertrude the Wombat.

One of the agenda items at this year's Labour conference is the McDonnell Amendment, designed to ensure the left wing can have another left wing candidate for leader after Corbyn. It was considered certain to pass as the Constituency Labour Party (CLP) delegates to the Conference are usually elected my the membership - now packed with Corbyn supporting Momentum members.

However, with the election having been called, in those CLP where elections haven't been held, the delegates are being appointed by he party executives, still largely anti-Corbyn. That doesn't mean the amendment will be defeated, the affiliated Trade Unions provide 40% of the delegates and of those 80% are appointed by just 3 which are Corbyn supporters - the GMB, Unite and Unison - but it gives them a fighting chance.

Another agenda item, as you say, is mandatory reselection of MPs by their at least once every 5 years. However the NEC, fearing a snap,election last year after Cameron resigned, decreed that sitting MPs or those candidates defeated at the last election would automatically be reselected for the next election. But that decree only holds good until 8th June.

The right wing of the party clawed its way back after Michael Foot and the rout of 1983 and the "longest suicide note in history", as Gerald Kauffman put it. If these amendments pass, this time there will be no way back.
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Old 7th May 2017, 08:19
  #8873 (permalink)  
 
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What I find amazing is the conviction of the extreme left. It seems clear to me that the country as a whole probably prefers policies that are towards the centre of the political divide between left and right. Last time Labour went extreme left, with Michael Foot as leader, they crashed and burned for a decade. Last time the Conservatives went further towards the right, under the reign of Thatcher, they ended up being relegated to the back seat for years by Blair's centre left New Labour. Under Blair, then Brown, Labour had one of the longest periods in power they've ever had - surely that should have tought them something about the thinking of the people in the UK?

Right now I can see that we're destined to a prolonged period of increasingly right wing Conservative governments, just because the other parties cannot get their acts together. I don't like the idea much, and still have bitter memories of the last time we had a government of the same persuasion.

Until one or other of the opposition parties gets their act together, and lays out a set of sensible polices that include the best capitalist elements of the right wing with the best socialist policies of the left wing, I think we gave no hope of getting a moderate government that represents the wishes of the majority (and I'm of the view that our "first past the post" electoral system isn't at all fair, in terms of representation of the people).
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Old 7th May 2017, 08:58
  #8874 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
One of the agenda items at this year's Labour conference is the McDonnell Amendment, designed to ensure the left wing can have another left wing candidate for leader after Corbyn. It was considered certain to pass as the Constituency Labour Party (CLP) delegates to the Conference are usually elected my the membership - now packed with Corbyn supporting Momentum members.

However, with the election having been called, in those CLP where elections haven't been held, the delegates are being appointed by he party executives, still largely anti-Corbyn ...
We solved that one, only very recently I have to admit, by getting rid of the concept of "delegates" to conference (in any case they weren't "delegates", they were "representatives" who were free to vote how they wished and not tied by any mandate).


We now have one member one vote - anybody can join the party, turn up at conference, and vote. There was certainly a faction opposed to this on the obvious fear-of-entryism grounds, but it hasn't been going long enough yet for anyone to be clear whether these fears were real or not.
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Old 7th May 2017, 09:01
  #8875 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Until one or other of the opposition parties gets their act together, and lays out a set of sensible polices that include the best capitalist elements of the right wing with the best socialist policies of the left wing, I think we gave no hope of getting a moderate government that represents the wishes of the majority (and I'm of the view that our "first past the post" electoral system isn't at all fair, in terms of representation of the people).
That was our "air war" campaign last time - that worked well, didn't it. It was read by the punters as saying "we're not Tories, so if you want right vote Tory, and we're not Labour, so if you want left vote Labour", and people did just that. We ignored this central messaging and branding locally and ran a campaign based on Julian's record and did rather better than in most parts of the country (but not quite well enough).
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Old 7th May 2017, 09:42
  #8876 (permalink)  
 
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John MacDonell, in an interview with Andrew Marr this morning that had many funny moments as he avoided questions, confirmed at one point that when Labour win the next election, there will be no increases in income tax or VAT for anyone earning less than 80,000 a year.

It's the "or VAT" that shows just how hilarious ageing Marxists can be about financial matters. If what he said was true, when Labour increase VAT, as they would surely need to do, to finance their extraordinary promises, we will all have to carry round a certified income statement, based on the last 12 months moving average gross income and renewed weekly, and all goods and services will need to have 2 VAT rates, one for those with the income statement, duly certified and checked at the point of sale, and the other for the rest of us. On-line purchasing will require the purchaser to send in a certified copy of the statement before the goods can be dispatched or the service (air travel, say, probably exempt no longer under Labour) delivered. Anyone who thinks that sound a bit silly needs to get with the flow and be positive, not negative.

Don't you just love Labour? I'm going to vote for them, along with the thousands of "young people" who, John told us, are joining every day to support Jeremy, in the hope that we have the Dream Team of Corbyn as PM, Diane as Home Secretary, and John as Chancellor. Who could not welcome that? (Nominations for Foreign Secretary needed.....my choice is Tony Blair, fresh from his peacemaking successes in the Middle East, unless George Galloway is available.)

Last edited by old,not bold; 7th May 2017 at 10:03.
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Old 7th May 2017, 10:07
  #8877 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
That was our "air war" campaign last time - that worked well, didn't it. It was read by the punters as saying "we're not Tories, so if you want right vote Tory, and we're not Labour, so if you want left vote Labour", and people did just that. We ignored this central messaging and branding locally and ran a campaign based on Julian's record and did rather better than in most parts of the country (but not quite well enough).

Blair managed it, though, didn't he? New Labour was just the Labour party taking the centre ground, with a mix of policies that came from both the left and the right.

I personally dislike the bloke intensely, because I don't think for a moment he ever acted out of anything but his own personal desire to be rich and powerful, but there's no denying that, as a concept, New Labour did manage to attract a lot of voters from both sides.
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Old 7th May 2017, 13:44
  #8878 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by old,not bold View Post
John MacDonell, in an interview with Andrew Marr this morning that had many funny moments as he avoided questions, confirmed at one point that when Labour win the next election, there will be no increases in income tax or VAT for anyone earning less than 80,000 a year.

It's the "or VAT" that shows just how hilarious ageing Marxists can be about financial matters. If what he said was true, when Labour increase VAT, as they would surely need to do, to finance their extraordinary promises, we will all have to carry round a certified income statement, based on the last 12 months moving average gross income and renewed weekly, and all goods and services will need to have 2 VAT rates, one for those with the income statement, duly certified and checked at the point of sale, and the other for the rest of us. On-line purchasing will require the purchaser to send in a certified copy of the statement before the goods can be dispatched or the service (air travel, say, probably exempt no longer under Labour) delivered. Anyone who thinks that sound a bit silly needs to get with the flow and be positive, not negative.

Don't you just love Labour? I'm going to vote for them, along with the thousands of "young people" who, John told us, are joining every day to support Jeremy, in the hope that we have the Dream Team of Corbyn as PM, Diane as Home Secretary, and John as Chancellor. Who could not welcome that? (Nominations for Foreign Secretary needed.....my choice is Tony Blair, fresh from his peacemaking successes in the Middle East, unless George Galloway is available.)




.. or you could just get school kids to buy everything for you.
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Old 7th May 2017, 16:18
  #8879 (permalink)  
 
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VP959: Your 2 most recent posts above are spot on. I said somewhere a long time ago that, while Corbyn is at least a man who stands by his principles and won't flip-flop to suit the current mood, he is too rigid and refuses to see how the UK public would prefer a more centrist government. I was sorry to see Andy Burnham more or less give up on parliament after failing to take the Labour Party leadership from Corbyn. As long as Corbyn is leader, there is no future for the Labour Party.
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Old 7th May 2017, 18:43
  #8880 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Gertrude, you may think you have got rid of "delegates", but the Labour Party Rulebook 2017 disagrees with you. Read Chapter 3 of the link below. The present union affiliation gives them around 40% of the total vote. I handed in my dissertation based on the current situation for my degree today. Affililiation fees give the GMB, Unite and Unison somewhere between 35-40% of the vote depending on the attendance.

http://labourpartymarxists.org.uk/wp...-Book-2017.pdf

Clause I. Delegations

1. Party conference shall be constituted as follows:

A. Delegates duly appointed by each affiliated trade union or other affiliated organisation to the number of one delegate for each 5,000 members or part thereof on whom affiliation fees, by-election insurance premiums and any levies due were paid for the year ending 31 December prior to the Party conference......
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