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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 18th Jan 2017, 11:52
  #7821 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richard Burtonville, South Wales.
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Is this a painful disorder

Martin McGuinness 'may have just six years to live after being diagnosed with a rare genetic disease' | Daily Mail Online

I genuinely hope so.
I have just prayed earnestly that he doesn't have a long drawn out illness, rather that he dies of lead poisoning, the beginnings of which were laid down in his 'army' days.

CG

Harsh? I buried my 66 year old big sis yesterday and this oxygen thief lives on. Cnut.
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Old 18th Jan 2017, 19:24
  #7822 (permalink)  
 
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"What will you be saying in your speech, Prime Minister?" (same question repeated with a dozen variations).
They should have woken up a bit earlier and turned the radio on, it was all on the Today programme.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 07:27
  #7823 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
How glad I am that I don't live my life in such a slough of despond that I need to take to the internet to express my hope that another human being dies a slow, painful death.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 08:52
  #7824 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
How glad I am that I don't live my life in such a slough of despond that I need to take to the internet to express my hope that another human being dies a slow, painful death.
Well, he will have lived decades longer than those whose violent, painful death he is responsible for.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 10:32
  #7825 (permalink)  
 
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I do not hope he dies a slow, painful death.

CG
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 11:10
  #7826 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
How glad I am that I don't live my life in such a slough of despond that I need to take to the internet to express my hope that another human being dies a slow, painful death.
Perhaps a bit of time in a uniform getting a first hand look at what he and others engineered during those murderous times might just make you slightly less pious and a bit more understanding.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 14:25
  #7827 (permalink)  
 
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Of course that presupposes that you have a knowledge of, and understand the history of that country. Whilst in no way condoning the activities of PIRA and INLA as well as the other republican paramilitaries they were in many ways a reaction to governance that ensured that part of the population were treated as second class citizens.

Had British governments of all hues considered the way that the province was ruled then the troubles would have been averted. McGuiness, Adams, Paisley and many other politician deserve some sort of credit for the way they set aside decades of hatred and sat down together to find a way forward.

The trouble with people who criticise the settlement is that they seem to want to allow themselves patriotism without extending that right to inhabitants of other countries. It may always be the last refuge of the scoundrel but to deny it's existence is the utmost folly.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 14:26
  #7828 (permalink)  
 
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It seems likely McGuinness was involved in much unpleasantness in the 70s/80s, but got away with it as far as the courts were concerned. However playing devil's advocate..... If we accept that he was integral to the implementation of the peace process, and hence compare the likely number of murders over the last 20 years if that hadn't been in place, perhaps he will end up having broken even when he gets to the interview at the Pearly Gates?

In my uninformed opinion it took 2 players at the extremes of the divide (Paisley/McGuinness) to make it work (granted with a lot of imperfections) - 2 more moderate loyalists/nationalists would have been no use (eg Trimble/Hume).
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 14:43
  #7829 (permalink)  
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The Chuckle Brothers.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 15:40
  #7830 (permalink)  
 
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The above two posts confirm my point concisely. Contrast with the aftermath of Gibraltar when things spun hopelessly out of control because Maggie wrongly believed there to be a military solution to the problem.

My wife taught Ian Paisley's grandchildren and we once met him in a restaurant. He never came over as the bigot that we expected him to be. Maybe the Chuckle Brothers should have got together a couple of decades earlier. Apparently they spent most of their time discussing football.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 16:35
  #7831 (permalink)  
 
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Effluent Man: I think you may have missed a bit in your earlier post re the government not acknowledging that part of the population were being treated as second class citizens. I remember Westminster taking over the government in Ulster and sending in troops to ensure that Catholics got a fair shake. ie. an attempt to redress the balance on their behalf. And they were welcomed by the Catholics. Until the likes of Adams and McGuiness stirred the pot for their own political ends.
I never normally take pleasure in reading that someone is terminally ill but I have to admit that, when I saw him on TV bleating about the First Minister, my first thoughts were "he's not a well man. Good!"
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 16:57
  #7832 (permalink)  
 
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That's a rather simplistic view of the causes of The Troubles. Without genuine, deep and longstanding grievances it would have been totally impossible for anyone to stir up the civilian population to that extent. In many ways for the Republicans this was an occupation by a foreign power, and in that respect no different in terms of their reaction than the occupation of France had been thirty years earlier.

The British government was of course in an invidious position with Loyalists threatening all kinds of dire actions if too much ground was given. People like Sffp being added to the mix as part of the occupying force would only have escalated things. What was needed was cool heads, not hotheads. Events such as Bloody Sunday only served to ramp up the pressure, and it doesn't take much in that situation for things to spin out of control.

Thatcher clearly saw the potential for a military solution, despite being advised by top military men that it wasn't possible. If it were possible to single out a key villain I think that it would have to be her.

Last edited by Effluent Man; 19th Jan 2017 at 17:21.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 17:07
  #7833 (permalink)  
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Nothing quite like biting the hand that feeds you.....Surrey hardly being a Labour stronghold.

Still, that's the Tory idea of fairness for all....

Conservative-led Surrey County Council plans 15% council tax hike - BBC News
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 17:58
  #7834 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
The above two posts confirm my point concisely. Contrast with the aftermath of Gibraltar when things spun hopelessly out of control because Maggie wrongly believed there to be a military solution to the problem.
Well in a way there was a military solution. The IRA only gave up violence when they had been comprehensively infiltrated by the UK Security services and when their funding dried up after the USA lost its romantic view of terrorism after 9/11.

Had those 2 issues not occurred then the IRA would have continued the war.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 18:11
  #7835 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, I did find it somewhat amusing how the US suddenly became the defenders against world terrorism whilst conveniently forgetting where a majority of IRA funding came for the previous 20 years. I didn't support the 'war on terror' then and deeply regret the UK getting involved in it.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 18:25
  #7836 (permalink)  
 
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McGuinness carried out and ordered killings of his own Northern Irish people and British citizens and armed forces, there is absolutely no doubt about it.

If someone wants to eulogise him as some sort of modern day Robin Hood then let them crack on but in the real world I doubt very much that many folk will mourn his passing.
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 18:40
  #7837 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jet II View Post
Well in a way there was a military solution. The IRA only gave up violence when they had been comprehensively infiltrated by the UK Security services and when their funding dried up after the USA lost its romantic view of terrorism after 9/11.

Had those 2 issues not occurred then the IRA would have continued the war.
Given that 9/11 happened 3 years after the Good Friday Agreement, I think it's not unreasonable to conclude you don't know what you're talking about!
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 20:41
  #7838 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post
Given that 9/11 happened 3 years after the Good Friday Agreement, I think it's not unreasonable to conclude you don't know what you're talking about!
Well if you say so but by my calculation the IRA finally relinquished violence and decommissioned in 2005 - which was 4 years after 9/11
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Old 19th Jan 2017, 21:26
  #7839 (permalink)  
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McGuinness, many years after the event, was widely reported to have claimed to have fired the first shot on Bloody Sunday. Whether that was euphemistically or in reality he didn't say but there is no doubt at all that he has a lot of blood on his hands.
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Old 20th Jan 2017, 08:05
  #7840 (permalink)  
 
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The real truth about Bloody Sunday has never been revealed and never will be. The idea that there were no terrorist guns being fired that day us pure fantasy.
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